Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 126 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    AFIN:

    In reference to your reply to Gumby, I CAN read other posts.

    Excellent!
    Thanks for letting me know - I was a little sticky on that point.

    If that's your opinion of me, and I've done nothing to insult you, forget it.

    Are we offended, sweet prince?

    You don't want honest dialog, you want to make yourself look good. Well, keep trying!

    ROFL
    That's it, take the huff.
    Why are you avoiding the question?
    Surely it doesn't present that much of a problem to a well thought out and sustainable doctrine?

    Gumby:
    Exactly!
    Btw, I don't think the hard-man soft-man approach is working. I told ya you shoulda done the hard-man bit. I always fluff it up

  • gumby
    gumby

    Afin.....don't be offended at LT......he's one of the nice guys....I promise.

    One thing you will find on this Forum. People from various areas have a different approach, sensetivity, and humour, depending on where they are from. If LT offends you, just wait till sombody from "down under" replies. Their humour is backasswards from the US......but they are super people.

    I too was as yourself when I came aboard here. S'ok....you'll see.

    Gumby

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Dammit Gumby, now you've gone and spilt the beans!!!

    Gah!
    ~goes off and sulks in the corner~
    ~mutters summit about never being allowed to play with the big boys!~

    ~Decides to test the waters to see if AFIN is really like Gumby...

    ...

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    If LT offends you, just wait till sombody from "down under" replies. Their humour is backasswards from the US......but they are super people.

    I resemble that!

    Just to let you know I'm watching youse lot.

    Now, who'd you like me to offend???

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    In 2Corinthians 12: 3&4 " caught away into paradise ". I'm sure if you refer back to verse 1, you will see that this is a supernatural vision.

    Yes, it is a supernatural vision, but Paul regarded his vision as involving an actual visit to third heaven and Paradise. This was explained in the thread that I referred you to, which you apparently did not read. In 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4, Paul uses the verb harpazó "to seize, catch" to describe the manner of the ascent to heaven and this is the very same verb Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to refer to the rapture of saints to heaven:

    "The Lord himself will descend from heaven (ouranou) with a shout....Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpagésometha) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (aera), and thus we shall always be with the Lord".

    Thus Paul is talking about an ascent to heaven. Note also that Paul, significantly, says that the journey occurred either "in the body" or "out of the body" (khóris tou sómatos) in 2 Corinthians 12:3. This is also indicative of a heavenly assumption. Again, if you look elsewhere in Jewish literature at the language used to describe visions of heaven, you will find exactly the same thing. The vision of heaven in the Ascension of Isaiah was an out-of-the-body experience, for "the mind in his body was taken up from him" to ascend through the seven heavens (6:10-14). 2 Enoch also describes a vision of heaven which occurred when an angel lifted him up bodily to each of the seven heavens and he witnessed the glory of Paradise in third heaven (2 Enoch 8:1-3). The most famous story is that of four rabbis who were temporarily taken up into the heavenly Paradise, and the experience of Eden was so awesome and indescribable that only one, Rabbi Akiva (c. AD 60-135), returned unharmed. The others either died or returned deranged (Babylonian Talmud, Hagigah 14b). The language Paul uses of being "caught up" into third heaven speaks for itself.

    On the other hand, Jesus was not explaining a vision but outrightly telling the robber that day, that he'd see him in paradise. As backed by other scripture, we know that paradise is an earthly one as only 144,000 annointed ones will be with Christ in the heavenly realm.

    This statement does not represent what first-century Jews and Christians believed about Paradise; it is a Watchtower teaching. Paul himself located Paradise in third heaven, just as 2 Enoch 8:1-7 and Apocalypse of Moses 37:5 do. This is not a coincidence. Many other early sources agreed with the Apostle Paul that paradise was located in heaven (Testament of Abraham 11:1-10; 4 Ezra 4:7-8; 2 Baruch 4:6, 51:7-11; Life of Adam and Eve 25:3, 42:4 ). So what scripture uses the word "paradise" to refer to the earth? None. The phrase "paradise earth" does not occur in the Bible. The only "paradise" (going by the LXX) that could be construed as being on earth is the Garden of Eden of Genesis 2-3 but the first-century belief was quite specifically that the Garden of Eden was not destroyed by the Flood but remains preserved in heaven and would be revealed to the earth at the end of the age as the abode of the righteous ones. It is mentioned at times with New Jerusalem, as the garden planted inside the gates and city walls:

    "And he shall open the gates of Paradise; he shall remove the sword that has threatened since Adam, and he will grant the saints to eat of the tree of life. The spirit of holiness shall be upon them, and Beliar shall be bound by him" (Testament of Levi 18:10-12).
    "To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God....I saw the holy city, and the New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven...Then the angel showed me the river of life, rising from the throne of God and of the Lamb [in heaven] and flowing crystal-clear down the middle of the city street. On either side of the river were the trees of life, which bear twelve crops of fruit a year, one in each month, and the leaves of which are the cure of the pagans" (Revelation 2:7; 21:2; 22:1-2).
    "And he shall take from Beliar the captives, the souls of the saints; and he shall turn the hearts of the disobedient ones to the Lord, and grant eternal peace to those who call upon him. And the saints shall refresh themselves in Eden; the righteous shall rejoice in New Jerusalem, which shall be eternally for the glorification of God" (Testament of Dan 5:11-12).

    The concept in Revelation is not that Paradise and New Jerusalem are simply located on earth but that they "come down out of heaven," and Hebrews 12:22 similarly refers to "Mount Zion" as "the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God" where one finds "thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly" (compare Ezekiel 28:13-16, where "Eden, the garden of God" is located on the "mountain of God" in the midst of cherubs and fiery precious stones, and Revelation 21 which describes the precious stones adorning heavenly New Jerusalem). Thus we have a consistent concept that Apostle Paul also uses that locates Paradise in heaven during the present, which will be revealed to the earth in the future.

    I prefer to believe that the translators were as knowlegeable as you and then some. They put the comma there, not me.

    You may prefer to believe what you want, but surely you know that the vast majority of translators -- if so inclined to add a comma -- place it before the "today", not after it. Adding a comma is interpreting the text, not translating it, for no comma exists in the original text. I gave you solid reasons why one should consider "today" as belonging to the second clause. These are reasons based on the actual context of the passage. I see you have addressed none of these points.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The bible says Jesus, while in the grave, "went and preached to the wicked spirits in tartarus" (about 2 and a half miles from hell).

    It is not clear from the passage when Jesus preached to the "spirits in prison". You are adopting the traditional Catholic interpretation of the verse. But the wording of the verse itself suggest that this occurred after the resurrection:

    "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, in which (en hó) also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built" (1 Peter 3:18-20).

    First, Christ is "made alive" in the Spirit and then the text says that it was in this same Spirit that Christ "went" and preached to the spirits in prison. Although a pre-resurrection interpretation is not ruled out, one that claims that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison after the resurrection is most felictous to the wording given here. The pre-resurrection interpretation is instead achieved by harmonizing this verse with Ephesians 4:8-10.

    It should, of course, be recognized that the Petrine tradition represented here is independent from that of the gospels, including Luke.

  • a friend in need
    a friend in need

    Leolaia:

    You have done a lot of research on my behalf and I thank you. As LT so aptly put it, I am not responding well to your efforts. Maybe I am close minded but my faith IS totally in the bible (NWT) so your other references are useless to me. You can now quit banging your head against the wall (my beliefs are firm).

    LT:

    That would be dudette and princess.

    afin

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    AFIN, is your faith in a translation, text, equivalent to your faith in God?

    What would you do if the Watchtower Society made "corrections" to the NWT? Would that have invalidated your earlier faith?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    AFIN:S'ok, it was an asexual "dude". I apologise for the Prince, though, he's been hanging around ogres again

    So, how about answering my question?
    What's YOUR opinion (I'm still nowhere near my Reasoning book)?

  • a friend in need
    a friend in need

    jgnat:

    My belief in the society is strong enough that if they see fit to change a belief, I would agree. That is because I have full faith that they are the true representatives of God and Christ Jesus.

    afin

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