Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t 251 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Sabrina.....Even if you believe that God influenced the selection of the books in the NT, that doesn't mean that the books don't speak from different points of view. It doesn't take much research to realize that different viewpoints are expressed in the NT. Each writer, or rather, each text has its own distinct voice and thought. The theology in the OT is also very different from that of the NT, which anyone who's read the Bible should know. The belief that there is a single, unified theology or perspective in the Bible essentially privileges certain concepts above others and erases concepts expressed in the individual texts in favor of the globalizing view. In other words, each text should be taken on its own terms. So when Daniel designates Michael as a Messiah-figure and Revelation distinguishes Michael from the Messiah child, this is only to be expected because the author of Revelation adopted concepts in Daniel but used them in new ways. To force the separate conceptions into an artificial compromise for the sake of a unified theology is not the best way to interpret a given text.

    The books of the NT run from Matthew to Revelation. What God has put together we must respect.

    The doctrine of God as the divine compiler of the 66-book Bible is unbiblical; the Bible also does not define exactly what constitutes "scripture". The NT was actually put together by men two hundred years after the individual books were written. Along the way it included books not found in your current Bible, and rejected certain other books (such as 2 Peter and Revelation). Only through discussion and compromise was a universal NT canon finally adopted at church councils. The Nestorian canon of churches in Syria still to this day excludes 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Revelation from the NT. It is easy to look at the canon after the fact and feel that it was "meant to be," but only through an appreciation of the complex process of canonization (see for instance: http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html) would one realize how arbitrary the process was.

    But I do believe that the first step to understanding the Bible is to allow the words written to speak for themselves without some outside influence. If the text says a "well is full of water" then imo we should allow, within context, that the writer meant a well dug in the ground and the water is H2O. Why try to decipher if his use of "well" and "water" is consistent with how it's used in texts outside of the Bible?
    Your analogy is not a good one. If the subject we're talking about concerned "wells" and "water," there'd be no argument -- for we all know what wells and water are from our own experience. But we have no such familiarity with "archangels," or what the word "archangel" is supposed to mean. This word occurs a grand total of TWO times in the NT. It is not a word that originated in the NT but was used for at least a century in intertestamental books (the word is not found in the OT). It already had a well-established meaning. What is more, as myself and others have already pointed out, in one of the only cases of "archangel" in the Bible (in Jude), the word is used through a direct allusion to just such a "text outside the Bible"!! So of course we'd want to look to texts outside the Bible if the very text in the Bible is using a text outside the Bible!! "Archangel" was widely used to refer to the highest class of angels. That's what the word meant. There is no evidence that two writers of the NT suddenly decided to change the meaning of the word to refer to a single angel that was above everyone else. There's nothing in the individual texts I mentioned (again going back to the need to take texts on their own terms) that warrants such a view.

    I must assume that the translators know what they are doing when they translate singular and plural nouns and their verbs. If most Bible translations say Archangel, the singular, it should be taken as such. If they say "chief priests", the plural, that too should be understood as written.

    I think you missed my point completely. I was showing why you cannot extract the arkh- "chief" from arkhangelos and infer from it that the word uniquely referred to one "Chief Angel," as you put it. The word for "chief priest" is built just the same way and yet it denoted not a unique individual but a class of "chief priests". The subject is not whether a plural should be translated as a plural or a singular as a singular. And it is not significant that the plural form of arkhangelos is not attested in the NT -- as the word occurs only TWICE in the Bible, as I've already mentioned. The plural form is readily attested once we consult a larger body of texts. There was a thread recently about the phrase "third heaven" in 2 Corinthians 12. This is the only case of that expression in the NT and without opening ones' eyes to the literature outside the confines of Bible canon, one can let one's imagination roam free in interpreting what this expression might mean. But when we examine the Jewish literature of the period, which locates Paradise in third heaven and explains what the various levels of heaven are, the reference suddenly makes perfect sense. This is another "obscure" word used in the NT which has light cast by "texts outside the Bible".

  • euripides
    euripides

    Sabrina, you wrote "If we are discussing a Bible topic then it must be proven or disproven by the Bible itself not outside texts, just as we do not refer to the Parlimentary decisions of King George III to help us prove the rightness or wrongfulness of the Constitution of the United States. The Bible must stand or fall on its own." While this makes for a convenient (and untrue) argument, it makes for neither sound Constitutional nor Biblical scholarship. When judges, scholars, and students analyze the Constitution, they also look behind the writing in a process of analysis using the canons of legal construction as well as referents to sources of the law outside of the Constitution. In this way Supreme Court justices have deciphered the meaning of, for example, Cruel and Unusual Punishment, as it was used in 1791, when the Eighth Amendment was ratified. The term is not transparent by our modern standard. Then, the judges compare other treatises written at the time to see how those terms might have been used. Thus the US Constitution gets interpreted in a process which freely integrates sources from outside the Constitution. What Cruel and Unusual meant then is not how it is applied today, because Justices have also applied 'evolving standards of decency,' in this particular case. [As a sidebar, may I also point out that as English common law is the underpinning to American law, when there is no American law on point, then English law up to the reign of James I is adopted within the body of law. An interesting example I can think of is a divorce case involving the division of a bee colony which drew upon a 16th century English case. But I digress...] However, to return to your point, which is I think that you believe there is an absolute reality behind the identity of Michael, I suspect that therein lies the problem. Happy Guy accurately points out that if it were a crucial point it would not be so oblique within the text. Leolaia accurately points out that the author's meaning behind the text(s) may differ from one text to another, and thus even the early church fathers were confused and disagreed. Put even more simply, what is at stake to say that Michael and Jesus are not the same? Would that endanger the primacy of the role of Jesus? Is that what is perhaps driving the argument?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    8. Liber Enoch, Apocalypsis Enochi (recensio ap. Syncellum). {1463.002} Chapter 9 col2 section 1 line 2. (Browse) kai theos tôn aiônôn, kai ho thronos tês doxês sou eis pasas tas geneas tôn (5)
    aiônôn, kai to onoma sou hagion kai eulogêmenon eis pantas tous aiônas. (1.) @8 Kai akousantes hoi tessares mega- loi archaggeloi , Michaêl kai Ouriêl kai Rhaphaêl kai Gabriêl, parekupsan ( = hoi d & Par gr. 1711 $ ) epi tên gên ek tôn hagiôn tou ouranou. (2.) @8 kai theasa- menoi haima polu ekkechumenon epi tês gês kai pasan anomian kai asebeian 92. Testamentum Salomonis, Testamentum Salomonis (recensiones A et B) (mss. HILPQ). {2679.001} Page 14 line 7. (Browse)
    topous. pote de opsin leontos emphainô. & 4. $ apogonos de eimi *
    archaggellou tês dunameôs tou theou, katargoumai de hupo Ouriêl
    tou archaggelou. » & 5. $ hote de êkousa egô solomôn to onoma tou 324. Assumptio Mosis, Fragmenta. {1201.001} Fragment frag j line 1. (Browse) blasphêmian ho Aggelos, « epitimêsai soi ho theos » pros ton diabolon ephê.

    (frag j.) Legetai ton Michaêl ton archaggelon têi tou Môüseôs taphêi dediêkonêkenai. tou gar diabolou touto mê katadechomenou, all' epipherontos egklêma dia ton 328. Testamentum Abrahae, Testamentum Abrahae (recensio B). {1701.002} Section 2 line 5. (Browse) de enêgkalismenon ton huion autou. idôn oun Habraam ton archaggelon Michaêl, anastas ek tês gês êspasato auton, @1 (5) mê eidôs tis estin, kai eipen pros auton: sôson se ho theos

    333. Athanasius Theol., Synopsis scripturae sacrae [Sp.]. {2035.071} Volume 28 page 372 line 32. (Browse)
    panu lupêtheisa hê pais, êuxato, kai apesteilen autêi

    boêthon ho Theos, ton archaggelon Rhaphaêl. Ho toinun Tôbit, paraggeilas tôi huiôi autou Tôbiâi, mê labein 439. Eusebius Scr. Eccl. et Theol., Demonstratio evangelica. {2018.005} Book 8 chapter 2 section 5 line 3. (Browse) aichmalôsias eis peras êdê sunelaunousês, tôi Daniêl euxamenôi heis tôn hagiôn leitourgôn tou theou Gabriêl ho archaggelos epiphaneis, @1 tên ananeôsin tês Hierousalêm autika tote kai ouk eis makran ese-

    455. Athanasius Theol., Epistula ad Eupsychium. {2035.123} Volume 26 page 1248 line 22. (Browse) Despotên Christon, katho anthrôpon Huion Theou para-

    didôsi, kai pro toutou Gabriêl ho archaggelos ton paradoxon tokon euaggelizomenos têi Mariâi, Chaire, 665. Liber Jubilaeorum, Fragmenta. {1464.001} Fragment frag x* line 6. (Browse) didaskomenos para tou archagge lou Gabriêl ta peri tês geneseôs tou kosmou ... ( & et cf. Rés., p. 70 ) . 699. Origenes Theol., Philocalia sive Ecloga de operibus Origenis a Basilio et Gregorio Nazianzeno facta (cap. 1-27). {2042.019} Chapter 23 section 19 line 21. (Browse) kektêmenos Israêl: hoper en sômati leitourgôn anagnô- (20) rizei, hupomimnêskontos auton tou archaggelou Ouriêl. (20.) Meta tauta leipetai exetasai kai parastêsai

    736. Testamentum Salomonis, Narratio de propheta et sapientissimo rege Salomone. {2679.010} Page 108 line 32. (Browse)
    « apo tou pantokratoros theou kuriou sabaôth katargeitai hê

    dunamis mas kai apo tou archaggelou Rhaphaêl» . kai hoi daimones etreman mêpôs kai ho basileus tous epitimêsêi kai tous orgisthêi
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    euripides....Very interesting, the analogy turns out to be a pretty viable one at least as far as the need to check original sources is concerned. Concerning the propriety of looking at "outside texts" (of course, when the NT was written, all the books that later came to comprise the NT were themselves originally "outside texts"), all one needs to do is look at how the short epistle of Jude is crammed with allusions and direct quotations from 1 Enoch and the Assumption of Moses, and the fact that the word "archangel" in fact occurs in one of these allusions to extracanonical sources. And of course, Jude is alluding to the story in such a brief way that he assumes his audience is familiar with the particulars and the ending, which is now obscure without additional information. The text is practically begging us to look to "outside texts" for further information.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    Sabrina: I think it is reasonable to believe that since Jesus had a pre-human existence and since he was God's firstborn son and loved his Father so very much that he would be the one taking the lead in fighting against his Father's enemies in heaven.

    What then was Jesus' name in his pre-human existance?

    And what happaned to that "pre-existance" form?

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Hi Euripides,

    I wrote: "If we are discussing a Bible topic then it must be proven or disproven by the Bible itself not outside texts, just as we do not refer to the Parlimentary decisions of King George III to help us prove the rightness or wrongfulness of the Constitution of the United States. The Bible must stand or fall on its own."

    I was not aware that the U.S. Judicial System uses the British King's Law to determine whether or not a particular law in the U.S.Constitution is right or wrong.

    Put even more simply, what is at stake to say that Michael and Jesus are not the same? Would that endanger the primacy of the role of Jesus? Is that what is perhaps driving the argument?

    Nothing is driving the discussion except what has always mattered in worship, the truth. Many have attempted to prove that Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. I presume they are doing so in order to promote truth. It would be wonderful if they then would also attempt to explain who Michael is and what place he may have before God since he is a very prominant angel who with his angels casts Satan out of heaven. Unfortunately the discussion rarely gets that far. Many of those who want to prove Jesus is not Michael are usually happy with just proving that one point and are not too interested in discussing just who this Michael might be in the grand Biblical scheme or what significance his name may have and so on. I wish they would though, it would lead to some very interesting discussions.

    I believe Jesus is Michael and have attempted to show from the Bible that the possibility of that being so cannot be discounted.

    Hi Leolaia,

    You and I are working from different viewpoints. I believe the Bible is as it is because it serves a good purpose. I believe God has guided the gathering of the books he deemed necessary to serve that purpose. I believe the Bible is not so much a history book but a religious book written to instill faith and to allow man a very small glimpse into the mind and heart of God. I believe a good part of Genesis is prophetic allegory. I do not believe there was a literal tree of knowledge etc. I believe that if Jude took something from Enoch then that's fine because God allowed the book of Jude to be included in the canon for a reason. I believe each book is a piece in a beautiful religious vehicle. I believe the only problem with the Bible has been the religious men and women who have attempted to use it as a club to control others.

    Suppose that a geneticist should through DNA testing discover that a young woman's beloved father was not genetically her father. If he should go and tell her this news what should she do? Leave home or refuse to ever speak again to her loving father? Is her father less of a father because they do not share the same DNA? Sure, she will be upset and have many questions but in all fairness if he has been a good father he is still a good father, her father. It may be that he did not tell his daughter because he never wanted her to know about her now deceased mother's adulterous affair many years ago. An affair which resulted in his daughter's conception. It may be that after that awful time in their marriage the father and mother grew to love one another again and to love their daughter very much.

    For me the Bible is what it is and as such it does contain material that to our religious DNA may seem out of place but it is there and it is there for good reason. Rather than get upset with my Father about it I choose to try and understand why it's there and to what good purpose it can be used. If our religious ancestors fooled around sometimes then so be it, but if our Father allowed the inclusion of some of their religious adultery into the canon then it was for good reason. But he did not allow all their adultery to be included in the canon and that was for good reason too.

    Sabrina

  • Schizm
    Schizm

    Sabrina,

    I have been enjoying this discussion, and in particular you're input. I too believe that Jesus and Michael are one and the same individual.

    I'm curious to know more about something you said in your last post. You said:

    I believe a good part of Genesis is prophetic allegory. I do not believe there was a literal tree of knowledge etc.

    The Bible says that Eve "saw that the tree was good for food" and that she "began taking of its fruit and eating it". How is it then that you don't believe the tree was literal? Also, what would you say the significance is of the location of this tree, it having a particular place, namely "the middle of the garden"?

    .

  • euripides
    euripides

    Hi Sabrina, When I asked what was at stake in saying that Michael and Jesus are not the same, you replied in a way that made it seem that you were just seeking the truth about Michael, and thus because the Scriptures assign him an important place but are not clear on fleshing out the rest of his identity, he must be Jesus. As you say, there is a reason he is there and that reason must be that he is Jesus! But you are still beginning with a theological premise, which is to say that nothing in the text shows up for any other reason than it was *meant* to be there. In searching for deeper meaning behind the identity of Michael, Jesus is the default setting. There is something behind the importance of identifying Jesus with Michael, and that is Scriptural cohesiveness and theological consistency. You rightly point out that the frustrating part of denying Jesus is Michael is that it leaves unresolved the full identity of Michael. *But We Can't Know Everything.* There are a thousand examples of things in the Scriptures which are ambiguous or uncertain. Michael is actually one of the few that isn't that unclear based on the evidence, IMO. Michael's identity evolved in church doctrinal history, and as he is used by the scriptures themselves. He is a fluid character imbued with meaning and significance that grows according to circumstance, thus Jude's Michael (based on 1 Enoch's and the Assumption of Moses' Michael) has grown in the 200 years since Daniel's Michael. Another contributor made the analogy to Abaddon/Apollyon, who is still identified with Jesus by the WT society. Just because there is a significant character doesn't mean its Jesus, does it? However, little of this will be sensical if there is a presumption of coherence and inherent unity. Jesus is Michael, dogmatically, and that is that. I like your analogy of DNA 'infiltration,' but it seems to me that if the analogy were carried on to its logical conclusion it would demonstrate the opposite of your intended point. Compare Job 31:9-12, where destruction is at the eventuality of adulterous affairs. Of course the scriptures don't operate in a vacuum, neither does the Constitution. When you talk about establishing rightness or wrongness, I have no idea to what you are referring. The Scriptures never said Michael was unequivocally Jesus. We *must* look outside the text to find full understanding and interpretation. That was the point of my analogy to the Eighth Amendment. Whether the Eighth Amendment is *right,* no one is arguing. Whether Michael does not *rightfully* have a place in the Judeo-Christian heavenly host, no one is arguing. To what the Eighth Amendment refers, its meaning behind a simple phrase, is the source of much heated debate. And, judging by these three web pages of discussion on this board, so also is whether Michael is Jesus.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    I have been enjoying this discussion, and in particular you're input. I too believe that Jesus and Michael are one and the same individual.

    What happened to Michael while Jesus was on earth?

    Was Michael raised from the dead or was it Jesus?

  • Schizm
    Schizm
    What happened to Michael while Jesus was on earth?

    That's fairly obvious, isn't it, since they are one and the same person. "Jesus" is simply Michael's earthly name. Similarly, the names of other persons were changed. Abram was changed to Abraham. Sari (spelling ?) was changed to Sarah.

    Was Michael raised from the dead or was it Jesus?

    That's fairly obvious, isn't it, since they are one and the same person.

    .

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