Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t 251 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  ellderwho

  Adam with the necessary abilities to make an intelligent choice.

  Then why didnt he make the intelligent choice?
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  ellderwho

  Doh! double post.
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  Terry

  I've really tried hard to just read all the posts and go my merry way. But, alas! I'm drawn like a rusty nail to a magnet.

  The hidden PREsupposition here is that this subject is credible. Why are we accepting that? Has any one of you ever seen an archangel? Nooooo. Of course you haven't. You have never seen Moby Dick either (except in the John Huston film). While we are at it, none of us here has seen Jesus either.

  And the Bible? Are we accepting the Bible as a document worthy of our respect? Why? The book we call the Bible can be considered many things; but, not a factual document containing supernatural data. Anybody honest enough to spend a couple of years looking at what investigators have uncovered about the history of the "early church fathers" will conclude we have problems.

  Jesus never wrote a word as a book or scroll of memoir or history. Ever wonder WHY? His followers scattered like mice when he was arrested. Yet, great detail is lavished on what was said and done during his indictment, questioning, purging and crucifixion. It is all speculative fiction.

  Many "Jesus stories" were exchanged for many years. Then arguments ensued over details and things started suddenly being written down and offered as proof texts. There were hundreds of these stories in circulation. Many were accepted and many weren't.

  The problem, then, became one of orthodoxy ultimately. Political considerations required enforcement of orthodoxy. Who would decide who said what and when?

  If you look at the persons who determined the CANON of scripture you will be forced to face a brutal fact. These men were about on par with crooked politicians, power-mongers and ass-kissers when it came to Roman jurisdictions.

  Honest men on both sides of every question (including whether Jesus was or wasn't God, an angel, a prophet, etc) ended up in gang warfare to prove their point! Men were mobbed, lynched, burned, stoned, brutalized by very pious die-hard church fathers. Churches were burned and arguments raged across the landscape.

  If you do not know the above you should.

  How dare any of you quote these people as though they KNOW SOMETHING you don't know! Nobody knows. It is all creative fiction posing as knowledge. If you put Jesus on one side (according to what is written) and Paul on the other side (according to writings) you will find something fishy.

  All of the Christian doctrines are creative fictions borrowed from ideas asserted by intellectuals with an agenda. NOTHING can be proved in the way we prove whether Nixon conspired to pay hush money.

  We are adults here. We have been victimized by people whom we love and trust just as they in turn were victimized. This nonsense about the Bible being God's word is just pathetic. It is unprovable and a waste of a good life.

  Feeding your family, improving your health, helping your neighbor are all REAL consideration worth your mindpower and your efforts. But, identifying a Jewish religious fanatic who suffered Capitol Punishment two thousand years ago with the identity of a mythical invisible heavenly bureaucrat is just ludicrous!

  Grow up!

  This is nonsense. Do you want to believe that Gandolf helped a Hobbit destroy a ring? Go ahead. But, when you start asserting it REALLY DID happen; you do your mental health great harm. So too with this Bible story blather about Jesus and Michael.

  IT ISN'T IMPORTANT.

  IT CAN'T BE PROVEN.

  Find something worthy of your time and effort that will benefit your life. This isn't it.

  And now....back to my own life which is, thankfully now devoid of the above cast of characters....
• 

  ellderwho

  Sabina,

  What is Jesus today, a man or an angel?
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  heathen

  Terry--- Goodbye and good riddance . Nobody cares what you think on religious topics and if you are an atheist then I suggest you go read up on evolution instead of harassing those of us who are interested in the belief structure of religion and stop wasting bandwidth.

  This is a legitimate topic that I do find interesting and I don't expect anybody to get violent just because we disagree .This also has to do with one of the fundamental beliefs of the WTBTS . I have checked the concordant and they do go into some speculation on who Michael was by stating he was possibly the angel that led the hebrews in the desert . I do find it interesting how the angel gabriel could not fend off satan on his own and needed the assistance of Michael to do so , this sounds to me that Michael was a more powerful angel and the gabriel was not in the same class as believed by some religionists .

  leolaia -- who exactly is it that gives these books you keep mentioning that are not in the bible the credit that they are authentic . I do agree with Terry on the point that the apostates were in charge of authenticating the scriptures but I've also seen evidence that they were thorough on what was official and not .
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  Greenpalmtreestillmine

  Hi Leolaia,

  It is interesting how the attempt to harmonize different biblical texts about the Messiah and Michael, which creates a new doctrine about Jesus being Michael the Archangel, ignores other texts such as Revelation 12 which distinguishes between Michael and the Messiah child,

  There is no contradiction.

  Revelation 12: 1-9

  	A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
  	and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. This may be the nation of Israel or the Jewish disciples who followed the Christ.
  	Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads {were} seven diadems.
  	And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. The dragon tries to devour the child at birth, at Christ's crucifixion possibly.
  	And she gave birth to a son, a male {child,} who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. It should be noted that the scripture says the male child was caught up to God and to His throne. If this depicts the Christ then this verse is declaring his return to heaven as the enthroned Christ.
  	Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. The woman is separated from her son. He is in the heavens with God, she is still on earth.
  	And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, The resurrected Jesus could very well be able to fight with his angels against Satan.
  	and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. "and they were not strong enough," who in the Bible could successfully overpower Satan and his angels? Jesus.
  	And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Jesus has successfully acted against the enemies of his Father in the heavens. ##############
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  ellderwho

  stop wasting bandwidth.

  LOL.

  Im with you heathen.
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  Happy Guy :)

  Sabrina:

  I find your reasoning far less sound in your last post, especially the third and second last points.

  In your 3rd last point: Why would you want to substitute Michael for Jesus? Using your own logic the bible is as God wanted it to be; so why suggest a deletion Michael's name and replacement with Jesus in that example?

  In your second last point: You say that Jesus would be powerful enough to defeat the Devil. Didn't you forget an important being here namely God? or are you now making a case to support the trinity doctrine?

  Lastly:

  Two points worthy of mentioning (and you have not addressed one of them yet):

  1. If Michael is Jesus, then why does the bible not mention God transplanting Mary with Michael's being into her womb?

  As well, would not Michael be able to transplant himself into Mary's womb? One would think that the bible would have discussed these things if the bible wanted us to know that Michael is Jesus.

  2. When Jesus was crucified, his last remark was "God why have you forsaken me?" He was frightened.

  If Jesus had actually spent thousands of years previously living in Heaven as Michael with God almighty in all his Heavenly glory then why should Jesus be afraid of dying and leaving this miserable Earthly plane only to return back to his Heavenly bliss with God almighty. I put it to you that it is because Jesus had never experienced it and therefor had been going only on faith.

  In fact after he was resurrected he was far more confident (probably since he had a small taste of heaven). Never once in the NT can I find any passage where Jesus talks to God prior to being crucified about returning to Heaven. He had never experienced it.
• 

  ellderwho

  1. If Michael is Jesus, then why does the bible not mention God transplanting Mary with Michael's being into her womb?

  Interesting how the WT allows wicked angels to do something Jesus cannot.

  Page 109 paragraph 4 (Knowledge Book) talks about how in Noahs day wicked angels took on human bodies and had relations with women. And when the flood came they wicked angels fled from destruction.

  These angels did not loose their identity at any point. Or cease to exist.

  Wouldnt it be more reasonable to say that Jesus came down from heaven to dwell in the man Jesus, then to say "God transferred the life of Michael to womb of Mary, and then say nothing really came down from heaven?
• 

  euripides

  Hi Happy Guy, you wrote, "2. When Jesus was crucified, his last remark was "God why have you forsaken me?" He was frightened. If Jesus had actually spent thousands of years previously living in Heaven as Michael with God almighty in all his Heavenly glory then why should Jesus be afraid of dying and leaving this miserable Earthly plane only to return back to his Heavenly bliss with God almighty. I put it to you that it is because Jesus had never experienced it and therefor had been going only on faith."
  
  Well he was either frightened or suddenly overcome with the urge to quote Psalm 22:1. Or, as I prefer to think, the authors of the gospels of Matthew and Mark (but not Luke and John) felt it was important to show Jesus' particularly Jewish roots at that moment, as well as his identification with King David, as well as, of course, the more human side of Jesus.
  There being no *human* side to Michael makes it difficult to match him with the human Jesus.