America Bashing

by TR 130 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    larc,

    You and I posted at the same time, so I wanted to add some comments. Whether we are a true democracy or a republic is a small matter to me. We are not a dictatorship, an oligarcy, and we do not believe in the divine right of kings.

    I wasn't slamming America for not being a democracy, but since it is a fact I wanted to make sure it was clear. When Reagan claims that America is the first country to make democracy work, I feel that isn't a correct statement. Most Americans think they live in a democracy, so it is an important distinction to make.

    As to whether or not we are in an oligarchy, I may have to disagree. I think we are in a "government by the few," with the few being the corporate interests who tells the politicians what to do more often than not. But boy is that another thread!

    The electorial college has its reason for being, but that is a discussion for another day.

    I quite agree, and only used it as a ready example to show how America does not have a true democracy.

    As I stated before, the Greeks made it work, but not well enough for the idea to spread and maintian itself.

    Oh, it spread, all right. We still look to the Greeks for this idea, so what they did so long ago took hold in the imagination of humans. It only didn't maintain itself back then because the Romans sacked them and instituted a republic instead, which is what America has.

    We are in the unique postion of making that happen.

    Except that America hasn't made it happen. We do not have a true democracy, by the definition of the word. Otherwise we would be pledging, "...and to the Democracy, for which it stands..."

  • reagan_oconnor
    reagan_oconnor

    Seeker brings up an interesting point...

    I have debated the merits of the electoral college vs. election by popular vote. I wonder if the outcome of our recent election will spark legislation to repeal the electoral college. The beauty of this is that, as Americans, we have the ability -- no, the right -- to make changes to these laws. I love that about this country.

    I've not done much research on the argument of democracy vs. republic, so I'm not qualified to comment on this issue.

    I am not a huge fan of Dubya... I think his environmental policies (there's an oxymoron for ya) suck and I'm less than enthused about his grasping at the Religious Right (ignoring the marjority of conservatives) b/c he's vote-hungry. But he's a politician; I expect that.

    I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.

  • larc
    larc

    reagon,

    Clinton's environmental program sucked even worse. His extremism gutted our energy resources.

  • fodeja
    fodeja
    As I stated before, the Greeks made it work, but not well enough for the idea to spread and maintian itself. We are in the unique postion of making that happen.

    Well, the story isn't that simple, since "democracy" actually consists of many different aspects. It's not like democracy was re-invented in America and then exported to France to spread out further on. I had a longer discussion (or rather, a question-answer session) on this with a lecturer from our history department just a few weeks ago. The modern idea of democracy consists of many interwoven "threads", so to speak. Some of these have apparently been pioneered in America, some in other countries.

    Here's a nice paper on this: http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/soc/groups/ccsa/markoff.htm

    I had a couple of other interesting links somewhere, I'll see if I can find them if anyone's interested.

    f.

  • ladonna
    ladonna

    To All USA Citizens here,

    Be proud of where you live. I have lived in several countries, not USA, but that is not my point.

    I have experienced other cultures.
    I am currently living in Australia on a temporary Visa, yet I have never felt like I am living in a democracy.

    It is a beautiful country.....very...yet the government really stinks.
    The people had a chance to be a Republic......what did they do??? Deny it!!!

    The people didn't want a GST...what did they do???? Vote for it!!!

    Something goes terribly wrong......do they storm the streets in protest????

    Only a few...

    So....to all of you...Love where you live. Live where you love.

    Ana ...I am going to be in the poo for this one!!!

  • larc
    larc

    Seeker,

    If you haven't noticed, the powerful have always dominated the weak and the poor. Keeping that in mind, our system of government with its checks and balances and a free press has done much to curb the abuse of power. Also, our poor are the richest in human history. In our own country, the living condtions of the poor have improved signicantly. For example, someone living at the 25th percentile today lives as well as someone at the median 30 years ago.

    What is the message of the Romans destroying the Greek democracy? Don't let the despots do it again to a democracy or a republic.

  • reagan_oconnor
    reagan_oconnor

    Larc, I agree -- I didn't vote for Clinton... but, at that time, I was (a.) not old enough to vote; and (b.) still a card-carryin' JW, so I couldn't vote "in good conscience." I watched the Clinton/Dole debates on TV though... gee, was that an interestin.....zzzzZZZzzzz...

    Seeker sed:

    When Reagan claims that America is the first country to make democracy work, I feel that isn't a correct statement. Most Americans think they live in a democracy, so it is an important distinction to make.

    As noted earlier, I am not qualified to discuss democracy v. republic. This is, however, an interesting topic. Fodeja, I'd like those links. And Seeker, if you have source materials that discuss the US as a republic, I'd like to get that as well.

    Thanks,
    Reagan

    I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    larc,

    Interesting discussion.

    If you haven't noticed, the powerful have always dominated the weak and the poor.

    Right, and it will always be thus. There are always those who want to push others around. What is the expression, the only politicians to trust are those who don't want the job?

    Keeping that in mind, our system of government with its checks and balances and a free press has done much to curb the abuse of power.

    It has done much good, more so in the past than today, but I covered that in my opening post in this thread. Much of our rights are being eroded by powerful interests, and the press is no longer free (except for a few marginalized exceptions).

    Also, our poor are the richest in human history. In our own country, the living condtions of the poor have improved signicantly. For example, someone living at the 25th percentile today lives as well as someone at the median 30 years ago.

    Yes, the overall living conditions have improved historically. I don't know that I would say that America's poor are the richest in human history. I would say the poor in the more socialized countries of Europe have it much better. You could say the rich have it better in America than anywhere else, but I wouldn't use the example of the poor. America has not done well by its poor.

    What is the message of the Romans destroying the Greek democracy? Don't let the despots do it again to a democracy or a republic

    Correct! I was wondering if anyone would notice that pattern. Indeed, the tendency is always toward a narrowing of power and interests, and why I worry about the abuses of rights that are happening now in America that rarely happened a decade or two ago.

    There will be a tendency in America for it to lurch toward a despotic rule. The 2000 election was a wakeup call to some, showing how easily an election can be corrupted (by both sides, as it turned out). Only eternal vigilance can keep the despots away, and when I say despots, I don't necessarily mean individuals. With corporations calling the shots nowadays, despotic rule can come in many forms and can feel very pleasant to the average person who doesn't see what is happening. After all, it's a lot easier for a despot to rule if he or they keep the people happy in the process.

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline
    I am currently living in Australia on a temporary Visa, yet I have never felt like I am living in a democracy.

    It is a beautiful country.....very...yet the government really stinks.
    The people had a chance to be a Republic......what did they do??? Deny it!!!

    The people didn't want a GST...what did they do???? Vote for it!!!

    Something goes terribly wrong......do they storm the streets in protest????

    Only a few...

    Ladonna,

    Everything you said in this post was the absolute truth. It's amazing, you and I come from different parts of the world, but we see the same things wrong with this government!

    RCat

  • larc
    larc

    Seeker,

    I disagree that our rights as individuals against the powerful are fewer today than in the past. The period of the Robber Barons in the late 19th and early 20th century was far worse than today. These industrialists raped the land and the people. The government has enacted a number of laws to curb these abuses, including the Sherman AntiTrust Act, the Wagner Act, OSHA, ERISA, and many, many laws.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit