Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason 175 Replies latest jw friends

Jason

farkel,
Yes, it is true. Busts are much more exciting than arks but that is not the center of discussion at the moment. We will discuss busts later when the ark topic cools off a bit. So far I have provided no evidence whatsoever for the theory on the ark. Not even circumstancial evidence.
About the giant critter poop. Since you didn't notice the few times I mentioned slanted floors this cannot be a possibility.
And the only explanation for getting rid of all the pee pee, as you pointed out so cleverly, would be to pull the plug at the bottom of the ark. There was also a high tech reverse flow system built in so no water could get in.
Oh! Good news. Discovery channel has a special on tomorrow night with evidence to support your theory that whales eat grass.
Jason.
Farkel

Jason,
You are so much fun to play with! Thank you for playing with me!
You said:
: About the giant critter poop. Since you didn't notice the few times I mentioned slanted floors this cannot be a possibility.
This of course, infers that all of the three decks were above the water level. The Bible never said that. Are you claiming that? If so, how do you actually know? If any of those three decks were below the water-line then your whole argument is trash.
Even if those decks were "slanted" AND they were below the water-line you haven't addressed the poop-scooping problems that I mentioned. All you've suggested is that the poop will slide to some place. It still has to be scooped up and tossed over into the water.
Have you done any calculations on the amount of poop that your average Ark would have on any given day and multiplied that amount of poop by the year that the Ark was floating about? Have you factored in the fact that there were 8 humans on that Ark who had to shovel that poop and how that simple act alone could be possible, given the pooper animals who pooped on that Ark? Thought not.
: And the only explanation for getting rid of all the pee pee, as you pointed out so cleverly, would be to pull the plug at the bottom of the ark. There was also a high tech reverse flow system built in so no water could get in.
In other words, you have no credible answer!
: Oh! Good news. Discovery channel has a special on tomorrow night with evidence to support your theory that whales eat grass.
YOU made that suggestion first. I just took it to its most absurd level. You claimed you were being sarcastic, yet you took a little umbrage that I did the same thing and are now spoofing me. I spoofed you first. You asked for it.
Farkel
Jason

RHW,
"You "know" you have the "truth" and anything that does not fit with your concept of "truth" is automatically a lie. Is this not correct?"
No, my dear, this is not correct. I said I knew the truth. I was telling the truth when I said this. But obviously when I said it you totally blew it out of proportion as if I had said "I know everything." By the truth i mean the truth about God. You forget I am not a borg following a mass collection because mommy and daddy taught me to. I came to Christ myself. I prayed to God to show me truth before I even believed He existed. He opened my eyes. On the contrary to your statement I think you believe that anything contrary to what you think is a lie. When someone shows me that I am wrong I admit it and change my mind. You want to overstate everything to prove a point with a completely biased and ignorant attitude toward something that you don't believe. But these overstated comments would never apply to your beliefs. Not even evolution. I have provided plenty of evidence against evolution. But it is ignored. Simply because you seem to be too afraid to put your beliefs to the test. About the calculations. I will do them myself. But unlike you when I calculate something I get all the facts beforehand. Take other things into consideration. Once I have gathered all of the facts I need (since I clearly need to learn about the majority of animals, how much they eat, etc, etc). I don't just assume things like this. I believe the Bible literally because all of the evidence supports it. Scientifically, archeologically, and circumstantially. It is also nice to know that all of you have your own little sect of friends.
When you were JWs couldn't you see that you were living a sick, twisted version of an actual truth?
I am not like you. I believed in evolution very strongly. I thought it was a fact. But I searched for truth and whether you believe me or not I know it. This, as I said, doesn't mean I know everything. One can never know everything.
I never asked for a pat on the back either. I simply noted that you critisize where you can but when you come to an answer you can't refute the subject isn't mentioned again. You say you used to believe the same thing as me (pretty much). You weren't even close. I wasn't brain washed in a huge cult. I hardly ever even go to Church. As Christ teaches, Seek and you will find.
You have challenged me to do the calculations so I will. But I know it will take time. There are tons of things that must be taken into consideration when calculating an event such as this. But I think you are afraid of my challenge. I challenge you to do the same. Last time I said this all I got back was a "Why should I?" I think this is fear to find out that it is feasible. And I don't mean, "well, my horse could eat this much hay in one day if it was really hungry so let's times this by 16,000 and then..." Why can't you even be honest with yourselves?
And I haven't convinced myself that you are trying to promote your beliefs. I just pointed out that whether you tell me what you believe or not it is altogether obvious by what you say. And you believe that what you believe is true. Otherwise you wouldn't believe it.
About hay:"horses will refuse to eat it unless there is absolutely nothing else available." Interesting. It may have been a last resort near the end of the trip.
"I also know that hay distributors don't maintain stocks from year to year--it loses nutritional value after one season." How long is one season?
"Questions and facts prove nothing if you refuse to consider them."
Another interesting comment. Sounds like something I said. And I have considered your words but they don't stand up to scrutiny.
"Believe me, Jason, I was once in your position. I KNEW everything because I had the "truth" from the Bible, and no amount of factual evidence to the contrary could prove otherwise."
There is no factual evidence on the contrary. It is the other way around. The evidence FOR the Bible is what is overwhelming. Not the evidence against it.
"Similarly, believing that Noah could have managed to fit everything into the confines of the Ark, AND maintain it all for a year on the water and for who knows how long on Mt. Ararat while waiting for the water to subside and vegetation to grow, is naive in the extreme. Couldn't happen, Jason.....simply couldn't happen."
Who is naive? You simply overwhelm yourself by making it impossible in your own mind. Why won't you at least read Woodmorappe's book to see what he has to say? If it is bogus it won't make a difference. And he does provide alternatives for food immediately following the flood. I haven't recieved the book yet so I don't know what these are. And about evolution. Couldn't happen...simply couldn't happen.
"Your hypotheses so far are desperate attempts to explain away actual physical laws. Better to look at the facts first, then see if your "belief" fits, rather than trying to change factual evidence to fit your beliefs."
This in itself is a false statement. my attempt to explain are not desparate in the least. So show me the "physical laws." And I never change evidence to fit anything. Facts are facts.
If you think I am full of it why don't we discuss some beliefs you have that are contrary to mine. I don't wish to get off this topic but if you'd like we can see how well your beliefs stand against a good argument. We don't have to but it is a suggestion.
Jason.
Scorpion

Jason said: "And the explanation for getting rid of the pee pee, as you pointed out so cleverly, would be to pull the plug on the bottom of the ark. There was also a high tech reverse flow system built in so no water could get in."
Jason, all I can say is that you have been watching too much of the Flintstones.
larc

Jason,
Your tilted floor poop shoot idea ignores one fact. In order for all the animals to fit in, they would have to be stacked up in cages from floor to ceiling. Let me refresh your memory. You said that there were 1.54 million cubic feet and 16,000 animals. If you divide 1.54 million by 16,000 you get 96.25 cubic feet per animal which is a cube about 4.6 feet on a side. You said that the average size of the animals was the size of a dog. If you assume an average cage size of a 3 foot cube or 27 cubic feet. Now, we have 69 cubic feet left. The cages can be stacked from floor to ceiling but they can't be stacked in rows because Noah would not be able to get to the cages several rows in, therefore there would have to be aisles. Assuming an aisle 2 foot wide which very narrow we have used up another 18 cubic feet. Now, we are down to 51 cubic feet for bedding and food. Assuming one and one third inches of bedding which is pretty thin, we have a cubic foot of bedding, changed once a week for 47 weeks we have 4 cubic feet left for food. That amount of food would last less than a week.
Again, there is now way that your poop shoot idea would work given the number of animals and their average size. The cages would have to be stacked. There is no other way.
larc

Jason,
Why do use inflamatory language like "biased and ignorant attitude". RHW and I have an opinion just like you. There is no point in us calling you biased or you calling you biased. I also do not see the value of calling an attitude - ignorant. I think our attitude as we have addressed our questions to you, indicate a degree of knowledge, not ignorance. I am not going to call you ignorant because you don't agree with us. All I said was, that your theory does not seem to agree with basic facts.
Now, regarding our other beliefs. I don't see any point in bringing up other beliefs until this subject is completed. That would only detract from our discussion. Now, if you want to start another subject with a new thread, go for it.
Scorpion

larc,
You completely forgot about the life boats that were also carried on the ark. I am sure this is where all the food was carried for all the animals including the baby Behemoths. I thought you were smarter than that.
You need to watch more of the Flintones like Jason does so you can be more in tune with this topic.
Country Joe

Hey Jason,
You do your Young Earth relatives proud.
But!
With all of your carrying on and such, you seem to have left out an important detail.
Gen.6:13 and Gen.6:17
Here we got God saying that "I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to DESTROY ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS, EVERY CREATURE THAT HAS THE BREATH OF LIFE IN IT"
Not only that, HE said,
"EVERYTHING ON EARTH WILL PERISH"
And backing up a tad, HE also said,
"I am surely going to destroy both them and the EARTH.
Don't mind the caps, they are all mine.
Now Jason, you being a bible inerrantist and all, these ought to be sigificant statements.
In other words, where does it say that the FISH and Marine Mammals will get to LIVE while everthing else on the planet gets to die.
In other words, "ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS" would surely include Marine LIFE, Right?
"EVERYTHING ON EARTH WILL PERISH" pretty much includes, well... pretty much "EVERYTHING", wouldn't you say? As in "ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS".
Are you saying that this one little ole statement about "every creature that has the breath of life in it" is a DISCLAIMER for Marine critters?
How is it that only Land Based life forms only have "the breath of life" in it?
This ain't about that whole "nostrile" thing and what God breathed into ole Adam now, is it?
After all, fish have nostriles too, Right? And they DO BREATH, Right?
Does the "breath of life" automatically assumes the air above water?
What exactly is it that fish are breathing anyway, except air thats IN the water, right?
OK, So they weren't on the Invite List to be on the Ark.
Or were they?
According to GOD'S very own PROCLAMATION then, fish and whales and clams etc. etc. are DOOMED.
NO EXCEPTIONS in "Everthing on earth" and "All Life under the heavens" Right Jason?
Far as I'm concerned, this whole "breath of Life" deal applies to absolutely ANYTHING that lives. Including that lousy mosquito that just tried to drill a hole in me. It aint breathing too good at the moment.
Even plants have the "breath of life". They are just breathing different than we are. But they are no less ALIVE. Yes?
I got to take down a nice old sruce tree this fall cuz it up and died for no apparent reason. When it had "the breath of life" it was a beautifull tree. Now its just standing there all dead and dryed up and ugly looking. WHY? Cuz its SPIRIT or "rauch" or whatever you want to call it left for parts unknown. BUMS Me Out!
So did Noah screw up?
God said "two of EVERY kind of animal AND of EVERY kind of animal that moves along the ground. Surely Whales and Porposis and such could fall under that first group of animals. Whales and Porpose are intelligent and surely have "the breath of life" in them wouldn't you think?
But of course, Noah couldn't manage the care and feeding of such animals on board for a year.
Or did he?
Did Noah have Sea Life Park on board?
Or did God fib a bit and make exceptions?
Or do a Bill Clinton and redefine a few words like "Everything" and "All Life"
Something I don't get. Lots of things actually, but I'll start with this.
I've been a builder of things all my life. I love to create. Most times things turn out real good and I'm proud of it. Other things I made, especially during a learning curve say, didn't come out so hot and at worst, ended up in the wood stove.
The thing is, I didn't go and take all of them other things I built around here or go and call up everybody I gave something to in the past to have them mail it all back to me so as I can go and BURN THEM UP along with the ONE THING that I was disappointed with.
Now ain't that just what God is doing here with this whole Noah's Ark senario?
OK! So He wasn't too thrilled with this creation of His he up and called Man.
But in the past he was pretty pleased with his other creations.
So why in the Hell trash EVERYTHING in sight because of One bad creation.
Surely, just about anybody and their 5 year old could come up with ways as to just wipe out the offending creation while leaving everything else alone.
God has always been big on Plagues. Why not something like that? Why should animals and plants have to suffer for just hanging out doing whatever it is they were created to do.
I gotta say, God ain't making a whole lot of sense here.
And not only that, He is fixing on doing in YET AGAIN?
Yeah! I Know! God works in mysterious ways. Right! Heard that somewhere!
Man! What a guy has to do to get Saved around here.
Why, just look at all that nonsense he put poor old Noah through. Even at the sprightly age of 500 no less.
And here I am a mere child of 50 years of age and I'm thinking about changing my screen name to The Celebrex Kid.
I take it you have never tried to make a single beam or even a single plank from out of a tree with just some good hand tools.
As in NO POWER, that is.
Having done the above, I couldn't help but wonder what it was like to use whatever Noah had to work with for tools.
We are proabably talking bronze here or at best some crappy iron cutting tools? Right?
I mean, this is all happening AFTER we see good old Tubal Cain beating on bronze and iron back in Gen.4:22, Right?
So we know, at least, we got some iron of some sort or other happening.
But, even with the best of todays high carbon tool steel plane irons and saws, it don't take too long before you are back at the sharpening stones and files.
Bronze and low to no carbon iron were never noted for holding an edge.
But yet here we are, with Noah and the boys building a freaking Battleship size boat along with everything in it?
Do you know how much cutting and splitting and cutting and planing that is?
Or adzing and hewing?
Or drilling and pegging?
Caulking and pitching?
You think a couple of 5 gallon buckets of "Pitch" be enough to coat the entire Ark with "INSIDE AND OUT"?
And how big of a forest of this Gopher or Cypress wood had to get mowed down for the cause?
The NIV mentions the wood to be used as Cypress.
On top of everything else these guys had to do, does this mean they also had to go out into a freaking snake and croc infested Swamp in order to get all the wood they needed?
How much of the Okeefenokee Swamp would be left if somebody did that today?
Never mind they had a Hundred Years to do it in. That don't make it any easier on your muscels and joints.
Fact is, its tearing them up.
Did God see fit to prevent them from having any down time from sprains or maybe a broken bone or two?
If so, then why not just drop a HUGE pile of perfectly milled and seasoned timber on them like He did in that phoney dumbass TV version
of "Noah's Ark" and let them save their bodies for the more important stuff like repopulating the planet with more of the same Stupid and Crappy Creation that went and got their dumbasses Uncreated in the first place.
And what was up with Lot in that stupid show anyway?
Wasn't he suppose to be like NOT BORN YET?
Yet here he is trying to do a Captain Kid number on the Ark with his merry band of Pirates.
What an Idiot! What was he thinking? And he being a "Righteous man" and all too?
Oh well! I guess he weren't any more or less Righteous than his real life counterpart offering up his daughter's to a crowd of Gay Guys and then latter getting plastered and getting them pregnant with his very own grandchildren.
At least it saved Lot all that hasel of having to find Son in Laws that he could actually like.
Who knew that it would catch on?
Something else too.
Noah was somewhere in the middle east presumably when he got into this whole mess of a project to begin with, Right?
Now along comes the big Flood and carrys off Noah and Company for a funfilled year long cruise on the high seas just floating around with the currents and such. Yet strangely, they land smack dab in the general viscinity from whence they started their big adventure?
Namely the Middle East?
Interesting coincidence, don't you think?
The entire world to float around in and yet they arrived within relative spitting distance to where they started?
Hmmmmm! Sounds suspiciously like a well contrived Middle Eastern bedtime story for little Middle Eastern kiddies.
Just a few thoughts I thought I would throw on the fire for ya'll.
OK! Well its time to call in the dogs and put out the fire.
Joe
logical

*yawn*
ianao

Jason:
"The very "law" that defines "muck to human" is what you said was violated by inference of what it theorizes. But, I do understand that what you and I consider to be law in science are no doubt two different things."
Now THIS is a rediculous statement. Can you rewrite this in english? Probably not.
Nope. That is as simple as I could make it. Take a look at http://www.dictionary.com and lookup any words you don't understand.
You said that what you and I consider scientific law are two different things.
And I hold to that.
I was wonder just what you consider scientific law to be?
Do you genuinely care, or are you shifting the conversion gears in my direction?
You don't consider the second law of thermodynamics to be a law? Well, why don't we throw out the law of gravity too?
If you don't consider thermodynamics to be law then what do you consider scientific?
Hmmm. So may I assume your contention is that "muck to human" breaks Time's Arrow? If so, then hows about checking the following website and see for yourself how you mis-interpret entropy. (did you not check out JanH's link?)
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html
"Shaky foundations lead to crumbling blah blah blah." You act like you think you're a pretty holy person.
No. I act like I am conversing with someone who sees themself a holy person.
I am not chastising anyone for disagreeing. I am not whining about anything. I wouldn't be writing posts if I thought everyone would agree with me. But I never said anyone had to agree.
Your actions speak louder than your words do. When you are in a debate, and you start telling people that they shouldn't argue their OPINION just because they don't consider it to be some ultimate TRUTH, then you are trying to rid yourself of the opposing opinion without directly dealing with the issues. That is a cop out. It is AS IF you are WHINING about someone having an opposing opinion.
I just don't understand why you have to be a prick about the whole thing. If it offends you too bad.
It doesn't offend me. And I was born a prick, it's something that comes naturally.
But stop acting like you're better than me.
Sorry if I come accross that way. I just see much of how I used to be in your posts. I wanted to save the world too and help as many people as I could as well.
And HOW is any "defending" me? They are defending their beliefs. Which they don't claim are true in the first place.
AND YOU ARE WHINING AGAIN. Why can't you "bible folks" realize that people can have OPINIONS? Everything is not a flipping theology!
And yes, I DO understand that RHW doesn't believe I have the truth. What would you ask a stupid question like that?
To make sure you understood that.
You think that because she doesn't believe me I should stop arguing.
No, I think you should argue. Argue please instead of WHINING about the fact that she IS arguing!
But you don't seem to want to turn the argument on her since I'm the enemy.
Good lord! What kind a paranoia is that? "THE ENEMY"!? I don't want to "turn the argument" on RHW because I happen to AGREE with what she is saying. That doesn't mean that I consider you "the enemy".
In case you haven't realized it yet, she is arguing as well and neither do I believe her.
That's right. And I don't see her trying to cop out of the argument by implying that you SHOULDN'T argue at all.
She asks good questions but they don't prove anything.
Could that be because you don't look at her answers?
If you don't like the discussion no one said you have to stay.
I like discussions, I hate WHINING.
It must make you feel good inside to say that I am always whining.
No, I feel good inside right now because I had a chicken biscuit with cheese, a hash-brown and sweet tea (I'm American).
But I haven't whined once. And when did it bother me that anyone was arguing? That is what I expect to happen.
Oh Geez, I suppose that what you said earlier about RHW defending her opinion was some freudian slip?
I think you are the only one whining about anything. And what are you talking about? You asked if I am going to drop the discussion. Does it look like I'm going to back down?
If thinking *I* am the one whining gives you any means to rationalize your behavior, then please use the defense mechanism to the best of your ability. I don't recall saying drop the discussion, I recall saying to start another thread with a new TITLE that isn't going to offend people who encounter the thread, that is all. BTW, no it doesn't look like you are backing down. It looks like you are arguing for the sake of it. Judging from your argumentation though, it looks like you are going to wait for the last brick to fall before you condemn the building.
This discussion may continue until all of you give up.
Hey! Maybe words DO speak louder than actions!
I never once said you and you pal RHW couldn't believe what you want. That doesn't mean what you believe is true and it doesn't mean I can't argue about it.
Now, go look in the mirror and say that to yourself over and over again.
You call yourselves ex-witnesses but you still think the same way.
I am NOT a witness. Never have been.
If anyone challenges your beliefs you get all rude and start putting people down. JWs act the same way. can't you see I'm not trying to start a fight. You have no reason to act hostile.
I don't think your really fighting anyway, except MAYBE internally to hold to what you believe like an opinion is some kind of charished thing.
All I want is to have a friendly discussion. But that's clearly not possible with people who have trouble being friendly.
No, you've made it clear that you want people to be open to your ideas. Fine. START a new thread with a more specific topic (on this subject) that doesn't insult the hell out of every other reader that reads it, and you will find a more friendly discussion. Or, perhaps that what you SHOULD have done. But now maybe it is too late. *shrug*.
And no, I don't need to be reminded about my previous posts. I know what I wrote.
Sorry.
And about everyone having to agree with me. As you said "Bullpucky." Whatever the hell that means. I already told you that I don't expect you to agree. I expect the same from you as I would expect from a JW. Actually hear what I am saying and at the least consider the possibility that it might be true.
Ok.... Nah.
But I doubt you can do that. Just because you left KH doesn't mean you found truth.
Can't leave what you've never entered.
And you don't really seem to care if you ever do. If you don't look for it, you won't find it.
Guess what? I've looked for truth for some time now. I kept finding truth after truth that I had to be dogmatic in one way or another to hold on to.
"In other words, you want to preach instead of discuss. Ok, fine. Please proceed to your nearest street corner and preach away."
I'm not sure what prescription of specs your reading through but obviously you made something up that had nothing to do with what I wrote.
Yeah right.
"Looks to me like they feel YOU have been the one mislead."
Don't we all feel that way about each other? So what you're saying is if I feel THEY have been misled I am wrong. But if they think I have been misled, they are right. That's a narrow way to think.
No, you don't seem to realize that it's ok to have opinions, and EVERYONE has the right to argue their point of view. That includes people who realize an opinion for what it is. You started this whole thread with a narrow black&white true/false viewpoint anyway. Don't talk to me about narrow thinking.
Of course I am a fallable human being. I never said or even thought for a moment that I wasn't.
Good.

Do you want the real truth or not?

Share this