by Jason 175 Replies latest jw friends
LDh,
Ok, honey I should have known you could stand your own, with or without a baby in the oven
Andee, and Spider Welcome to insanity I loved your posts, I think you will fit right in. Try the live chat for some one on one convos.
wendy
Blind faith can justify anything~Richard Dawkins, The selfish gene
Spider,
I liked what you had to say. Very mature and refreshing after all the bullshit spewing of Jason. Welcome to the DB!
RCat
LDH,
What a fool you are. You are such a bitch. What do you know Stupid? I don't mean it but that is what you sound like. Please PLEASE at least TRY to be nice. I'll welcome your opinion but you really don't have to be so mean. Once again you show yourself to be a terrible judge of character. I am not in the least a "self-righteous prick." I do not consider myself righteous. I never claimed to be the truth but I can offer what i know about truth to people who ask for it. I await your next post. I'm sure it will read something like this "Can you believe this condescending asshole. He thinks we're all lost and stupid and HE'S the almighty fortune-teller who's going to march before us into heaven. What an arrogant bastard. I'm going to keep calling him names and trying to put him down because I'm better than him." I apologize if I misrepresented your position or put words in your mouth. But so far that is the vibe your messages have been giving off.
Spider,
I appreciate your input on this subject. I realize how sensative an area it can be for an ex-JW. When I talk about the truth I am not trying to get you to believe in my religion. I am not offering you another "truth." I am simply trying to offer real truth. Things that stand up to scrutiny. I, myself, am not an ex-witness. But i haven't always believed in Jesus either.
believe me. I'm not living in a castle and I certainly do not feel superior to anyone. I am not the member of any organization of church. I don't believe any one sect. I do believe in the Bible. The real bible. If you want to know what translation I prefer, that the New King James Version. It is the most accurate literal translation into english so far.
We must be like children means we must have child-like faith in God. In otherwards, we believe god and believe in God with no doubt in our mind. That DOES NOT mean we cannot ask questions and put God's reality to the test.
Willy_think,
Only the NWT says Jesus is "a god." The NWT is a version of the "anonymously" "translated" by I a few JWs who didn't know Greek or Hebrew. They even admitted it in court.
Believe me, the Bible make a hell of a lot more sense when you read an accurate translation.
And since nobody likes the Subject name. from now on it will be " If you are not in a bad mood and would appreciate the input of someone who just might know something valuable, Click here." Sound fair?
Jason - thanks for you're comments.
I asked you what is truth.
Here are things I believe are true.
1)The sun will rise tommorrow.
2)ice is cold.
3)one add two make three.
Maybe some would take issue with no1.The sun does not actually rise.It is just my own perspective.
Are perhaps other things which seem true to us also a matter of perspective.Reality,the passing of time - how much is our own perspective?
How true are you're truth's next to these.
Can you prove to me that Jesus was God's son.You might prove Jesus existed.You might show what the bible says.Does this then become absolute truth?
How much is simply you're belief in its truth.
You have a right to you're belief.
If I believe in Budda's teachings will you teach me my error.
More questions for you.
You stated that the "proof" for dinosaurs living at the time of Noah was the belief in dragons. Are you then saying that Noah had two of each type of dinosaur on the ark? This would have had to be the case, since dragons weren't really mentioned until Medieval times.
Also, if dragons had to be actual living creatures (as opposed to fantastical creations of the time), then you are also saying that Noah had on the Ark Unicorns, Pegasus, a couple of Chimeras, a pair of Minotaurs, Griffins, Centaurs, Gargoyles, Leprechauns, Elves, Nymphs, Satyrs, and any other "mythological" creatures that were described throughout history.
Also, where were these dinosaur "dragons" hiding after the Flood, since there was virtually no mention of these creatures for thousands of years. I don't remember any of the Apostles mentioning them.
Then...why are there no dinosaurs pictured in cave drawings of early man? After all, these pictures portrayed various types of animals living at that time....but no dinosaurs. Or, for that matter, proto-elephants or Eohippus, the proto-horse. Did Eohippus live in conjunction with modern horses? Were they also on the Ark? If so, where are they today?
Which brings up the subject of Neandertals. How do they fit into your scenario? Or, for that matter, the amount of time necessary for petroleum to be created. I think the timetable is much longer than 6,000 years.
How about the historical evidence of advanced civilizations being found that were established with 150 years of the time of the Flood? How could eight people have procreated sufficiently to form a civilization of thousands with cities and major trade established?
How about animals such as Tasmanian Devils, Platypusses, Kangaroos, Dodos, Lemurs, and so on? Did Noah tour around the world dropping these creatures off in their particular habitats?
Redhorsewoman,
I'm glad we can finally get down to business.
About dragons. I am not talking about dragons of fantasy. I'm saying that the phrase "dinosaur" hasn't been around all that long. And the term "dragon" is how people of the past may have discribed a dinosaur.
And I never said fantastic creatures were on the ark. But dinosaurs were. Not dragons as you percieve them today.
And the dino's weren't "hiding" anywhere. You said there was no mention of them for thousands of years.
St. George apparently fought a dragon.
And a bit of history from england AD 1405: "Close to the town of bures, near Sudbury, there has lately appeared, to the great hurt of the countryside, a dragon, vast in body, with a crested head, teeth like a saw, and a tail extending to an enormous length." (a reference can be found in After the Flood by Bill Cooper, p.133)
Did you know there are dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible? Job 40:
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with along with you; he eats grass as an ox.
16 See now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his "tail like a cedar": the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God(this phrase means he is the largest animal God created): he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.
The description of a behemoth fits no animal that is alive today. But it does fit a dinosaur. "A tail like a cedar tree" isn't talking about an elephant. The leviathan is another biblical account of an animal that is no longer present.
And why aren't any dinosaurs pictured in cave drawings? They are.
There are interesting rock carvings and paintings in different parts of the world that look like dinosaurs. For instance, in Natural Bridges National Monument in Utah, there is painting made by the Indians that that looks exactly like a sauropod dinosaur. The Indians paint what they see.
"The Geelong Bunyip"
For instance, the Geelong Advertiser, of Victoria, Australia, reported in July 1845 about the finding of unfossilised bone forming part of the knee joint of some gigantic animal. The paper reported showing it to an Aboriginal they regarded as particularly intelligent. He identified it immediately as a ‘bunyip’ bone, and unhesitatingly drew a picture of the animal which looked like a dinosaur.
When the bone was shown to other Aboriginal people who ‘had no opportunity of communicating with each other’, they all instantly recognised the bone and the picture as being of a ‘bunyip’, a common word in some Aboriginal languages for a frightening monster. They gave detailed, consistent accounts of where a few people they knew had been killed by one of these. The creature was said to be amphibious, laid eggs, and from the descriptions, appeared to combine ‘the characteristics of a bird and an alligator’ — i.e. a bipedal reptile. (Note that no crocodiles or alligators are found in Australia except in its far north — Geelong is deep in the south). One of the Aboriginals, named Mumbowran, showed ‘several deep wounds on his breast made by the claws of the animal’
The description and sketch certainly fits well with some form of bipedal dinosaur.
A large number of Aboriginal stories of creatures of possible dinosaurian origin have been collected by Rex Gilroy, an evolutionist. Since we should be cautious about over-reliance on this particular source without independent confirmation, a large number of the ones he describes have been omitted. However, Burrunjor and Kulta, the accounts of which appear below, also feature in a book by zoologist Karl Shuker.
"Burrunjor"
Extending from the Northern Territory’s Arnhem Land east through the Gulf of Carpentaria to Queensland’s Cape York district is the story of ‘Burrunjor’. The description is reminiscent of an Allosaurus. In 1950, cattlemen on the border between the Northern Territory and Queensland claimed losing stock to a strange beast which left mutilated, half-eaten corpses in its destructive wake. A part-Aboriginal tracker also claimed to have seen a bipedal reptile, 7–8 metres (25 feet) tall, moving through the scrub near Lagoon Creek on the Gulf Coast in 1961.
Some parts of northern Australia’s vastness are still little explored, and large areas of it are closed to public access. Perhaps some creatures unknown to science are still to be found there. That this is possible was shown a few years back when a tree, the Wollemi Pine, was found in a national park in New South Wales. Scientists said it was ‘like finding a small dinosaur’. The tree is known from its fossils in ‘dinosaur age’ rock, but these are not found in any of the layers in between. Unlike an animal, a tree cannot run away and hide, yet this tree was completely unknown to science till recently.
"Kulta"
Some parts of Australia have traditions of huge reptiles suggestive of long-necked sauropods, the dinosaur group which includes Diplodocus and Apatosaurus. For instance, Central Australian tribes described ‘Kulta’ as a giant serpent who lived in the swamps which once covered the region, and ate plants. He was said to have a small head at the end of a long, narrow neck, a massive, bulky body supported by four huge legs, and a long, pointed tail which trailed behind him. This is similar to the accounts of Wanambi from northern Australia, who features in Aboriginal cave paintings, and Kooleen and Myndie from Victoria.
Unfortunately, the Aborigines maintain, the ‘land eventually all dried up, the forests became desert, the swamps emptied, and Kulta died’.6 This actually fits the most common creationist models of the changing climate after Noah’s Flood.
Since most of the water for the Flood came up from under the ground (Genesis 7:11 and 8:2), the post-Flood oceans would have been warmer than today. This would have generated extra moisture in the atmosphere for centuries afterwards, providing ideal conditions for an ice age.9 This same increase in moisture would have meant that there was much more rainfall for centuries after the Flood in regions not affected by ice.
Eventually, the rainfall patterns would have ‘normalised’ once all the excess oceanic heat had come into balance with the air temperature. This is consistent with the universally held view that Australia’s now-arid heart was once a lushly forested, humid environment. Thus Australia’s dinosaurs, at least, may have died out largely as a result of the environmental changes as vast areas of the inland relentlessly dried up.
All of the animals, even the ones that are extinct now, used to live together. And to answer your question "where are they today?" Well it's obvious they became extinct over time just like animals today are becoming extinct.
NEANDERTHALS:
No one has had a worse public image to overcome than have the Neandertals. When that Neander Valley individual was discovered in a cave in Germany in 1856, the shape of his skull and the curves in the long bones of his body caused evolutionists to believe that the expected link between apes and humans had been found. Evolutionary preconceptions also guided the world-famous anatomist, Marcellin Boule, as he restored the Neandertal skeleton from La Chapelle-aux-Saints, France, to show the world what a Neandertal looked like — a stooped and stupid hunchback. This view of the Neandertal ‘Cave Man’ prevailed for 100 years.
In the 1960s Boule’s glaring mistakes were corrected. It was realized that the Neandertal people, when healthy, stood straight and erect. The physical ‘redemption’ of the Neandertals was accomplished. However, the Neandertals were still considered to be culturally barren. Even the discovery at Shanidar Cave, Iraq, that the Neandertals buried their dead with flowers did not improve their general image. Many evolutionists still talk about the Neandertal people as having been culturally stagnant. They say that about 40,000 years ago, ‘The Great Leap Forward’ took place. Anatomically modern humans invaded Europe bringing art, technology, and innovation. The Neandertals, being outclassed, disappeared.
In recent years, however, we have witnessed a cultural ‘redemption’ of the Neandertals is beginning to take place. The year 1996 saw the discovery of items of personal ornamentation used by Neandertals, five different types of musical instruments used by Neandertals, and the first example of Neandertal cave painting. Archaeologist Randall White (New York University) says of the Neandertals: ‘The more this kind of evidence accumulates, the more they look like us’. It can now be said that every type of evidence that we can reasonably expect from the fossil and archaeological record showing that the Neandertals were fully human has already been discovered.
One of the strongest evidences that the Neandertals were fully human relates to their reputation as ‘Cave Men’. Since so many of their remains have been found in caves, it was assumed that they lived in caves because they had not evolved enough to invent more sophisticated dwellings. The public is unaware that Neandertal dwellings have been found. Nor is the public aware that thousands of people across the world live in caves today. When Ralph Solecki (Columbia University) excavated Shanidar Cave, Iraq, he discovered that about 80 Kurds had lived in that cave until 1970, during a time of political unrest.
Neandertals were just like us.
PETROLEUM:
Following the discovery some three years ago that petroleum was forming rapidly in the present-day world along the East Pacific Rise, another team of scientists has discovered recently a similar accumulation of rapidly heated hydro-carbons in Western Antartic. It appears that hot lava is interacting with the organically rich waters in the area to cook the material and produce oil. This petroleum could have commercial value if there were enough of it. But discoverers so far believe there is very little oil in the area, perhaps because lava intrudes only over very small regions at any one time. All this adds to the evidence that vast periods of time are not needed to produce geological deposits such as oil and coal.
Science News-vol 127, page 180, March 23rd, 1985.
And now about advanced civilizations existing just 150 years after the flood. It doesn't take long to procreate if you think about it. And since people in those days lived for hundreds of years there would be plenty of time to have babies. People didn't have 2 or 3 kids like they do now. They had as many children as they could. Many men also had multiple wifes, increasing his number of children. And Noah and his family were highly advanced themselves so it's not like all the technology had to be re-learned after the flood.
"How about animals such as Tasmanian Devils, Platypusses, Kangaroos, Dodos, Lemurs, and so on? Did Noah tour around the world dropping these creatures off in their particular habitats?"
When Krakatoa erupted in 1883, the island remnant remained lifeless for some years, but was eventually colonized by a surprising variety of creatures, including not only insects and earthworms, but birds, lizards, snakes and even a few mammals. One would not have expected some of this surprising array of creatures to have crossed the ocean, but they obviously did. Even though these were mostly smaller than some of the creatures we will discuss here, it illustrates the limits of our imaginings on such things.
Land Bridges
Evolutionists acknowledge that men and animals could once freely cross the Bering Strait, which separates Asia and the Americas.[1] Before the idea of continental drift became popular, evolutionists depended entirely upon a lowering of the sea level during an ice age (which locked up water in the ice) to create land bridges, enabling dry-land passage from Europe most of the way to Australasia, for example.
The existence of some deep-water stretches along the route to australia is still consistent with this explanation. Evolutionist geologists themselves believe there have been major tectonic upheavals, accompanied by substantial rising and falling of sea floors, in the time period which they associate with an ice age. For instance, parts of California are believed to have been raised many thousands of feet from what was the sea floor during this ice age period, which they call "Pleistocene" (one of the most recent of the supposed geological periods). creationist geologists generally regard Pleistocene sediments as post-flood, the period in which these major migrations took place.
In the same way, other dry-land areas, including parts of these land bridges, subsided to become submerged at around the same time.[2]
There is a widespread, but mistaken, belief that marsupials are found only in Australia, thus supporting the idea that they must have evolved there. However, living marsupials, opossums, are found also in North and South America, and fossil marsupials have been found on every continent. Likewise, monotremes were once thought to be unique to Australia, but the discovery in 1991 of a fossil platypus tooth in South America stunned the scientific community.[3] Therefore, since evolutionists believe all organisms came from a common ancestor, migration between Australia and other areas must be conceded as possible by all scientists, whether evolutionist or creationist.
creationists generally believe there was only one Ice Age after, and as a consequence of, the flood. The lowered sea level at this time made it possible for animals to migrate over land bridges for centuries. Some creationists propose a form of continental break-up after the flood, in the days of Peleg. This again would mean several centuries for animals to disperse, in this instance without the necessity of land-bridges. However, continental break-up in the time of Peleg is not widely accepted in creationist circles.
Did the Kangaroo Hop All the Way to Australia?
How did animals make the long journey from the Ararat region? Even though there have been isolated reports of individual animals making startling journeys of hundreds of miles, such abilities are not even necessary. Early settlers released a very small number of rabbits in Australia. Wild rabbits are now found at the very opposite corner (in fact, every corner) of this vast continent. Does that mean that an individual rabbit had to be capable of crossing the whole of Australia? Of course not. Creation speakers are sometimes asked mockingly, "Did the kangaroo hop all the way to Australia?" We see by the rabbit example that this is a somewhat foolish question.
Populations of animals may have had centuries to migrate, relatively slowly, over many generations. Incidentally, the opposite question (also common), as to whether the two kangaroos hopped all the way from Australia to the ark, is also easily answered. The continents we now have, with their load of flood-deposited sedimentary rock, are not the same as whatever continent or continents there may have been in the pre-flood world.
We also lack information as to how animals were distributed before the flood. Kangaroos (as is true for any other creature) may not have been on any isolated landmass. Genesis 1:9 suggests that there may have been only one landmass. ("Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.") For all we know, kangaroos might have been feeding within a stone's throw of Noah while he was building the Ark.
It may be asked, if creatures were migrating to Australia over a long time (which journey would have included such places as indonesia, presumably) why do we not find their fossils en route in such countries?
Fossilization is a rare event, requiring, as a rule, sudden burial (as in the flood) to prevent decomposition. Lions lived in israel until relatively recently. We don't find lion fossils in Israel, yet this doesn't prevent us believing the many historical reports of their presence. The millions of bison that once roamed the United States of America have left virtually no fossils. So why should it be a surprise that small populations, presumably under migration pressure from competitors and/or predators, and thus living in only one area for a few generations at most, should leave no fossils?
Jason.
The word Behemoth mentioned in chapter 40 verse 15 of Job is a derivative of an Egyptian word meaning "water ox."
A number of Bible trnslation (AT, La, Ro, NW, JB, RS) use the word "hippopotamus" in the main text or in footnotes to identify the creature refered to by God.
So much for the dinosaur theory Jason is trying to convey for Jobs day.
Sooooo Jason
I haven't been following the parade what IS your story???
Why are you cutting and pasting borg material ???
if you are not it reads like it, nearly put me to sleep
I think Jason is a fraud. The more I read what he posts, the more it is apparent.
scorpion,
If the behemoth was a hippo, as you and most bible footnotes point out, then it is obvious neither God nor Job had any idea what a hippo looked like. Have you ever seen a hippo with a tail like a cedar tree? No? Me neither. Is a hippo the BIGGEST animal God created? No? Didn't think so.
So much for Scorpion's comeback.
You think one negative comment about my posts is just going to blow it all out of the water.
And DCs Ghost: I am not one of the "borg" as you put it. I am far from it my friend.
Jason.
