Country Joe,
Do you believe in Macro-evolution?
What about thermodynamics?
Do you want the real truth or not?
by Jason 175 Replies latest jw friends
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Jason
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funkyderek
Do you believe in Macro-evolution?
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but what the hell? Yes, like most intelligent educated people I believe in macro-evolution. It's like asking someone if they believe in Australia. It's not really open to much doubt. The evidence is there. The only questions are in the details.
What about thermodynamics?
What about them? I presume you're referring to the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy always increases in a closed system. It's irrelevant to a debate on origins/evolution because we do not live in a closed system. But I'm sure you already know that.
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Ubi dubium ibi libertas -
Jason
funkyderek,
Like most intelligent educated people? You clearly know nothing for the evidence against the theory. Tell me what evidence is there? You said the evidence is there now tell me exactly what evidence you are talking about.
And in case you don't know, the second law of thermodynamics does apply to us. You'd have to be blind not to see it. Tell me, if entropy doesn't apply to the universe, what does it apply to? It is a basic law of nature. If it doesn't apply to nature and the things around us why do buildings get old and fall apart? Without entropy this would not happen. It is the law of decay, the reason things disintegrate over time. It is also the reason that the amount of energy that can be used for work is running out. Chemical compounds ultimately break apart into simpler materials; they do not become more complex.
Just as I suspected you deny a basic law of nature and say it doesn't apply just so you can keep believing your grandfather was a chimp.
No experimental evidence disproves it, say physicists G.N. Hatspoulous and E.P. Gyftopoulos:
"There is no recorded experiment in the history of science that contradicts the second law or its corollaries..."
There is no fossil evidence in support of evolution, there are no transitional fossils, and fossils don't come with dates written on them, their age is assumed to fit the evolutionary time line.
You said that entropy only applies to a closed system. However, to create any kind of upward, complex organization in a closed system requires outside energy and outside information. Evolutionists maintain that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does not prevent Evolution on Earth, since this planet receives outside energy from the Sun. Thus, they suggest that the Sun's energy helped create the life of our beautiful planet. However, is the simple addition of energy all that is needed to accomplish this great feat?
open systems/closed systems: open thermodynamic systems exchange heat, light, or matter with their surroundings, closed systems do not. No outside energy flows into a closed system. Earth is an open system; it receives outside energy from the Sun.
Evolutionists use this to argue that evolution is possible because the earth recieves energy from the sun. But compare a living plant to a dead one. Can the simple addition of energy make a completely dead plant live?
A dead plant contains the same basic structures as a living plant. It once used the Sun's energy to temporarily increase its order and grow and produce stems, leaves, roots, and flowers - all beginning from a single seed.
If there is actually a powerful Evolutionary force at work in the universe, and if the open system of Earth makes all the difference, why does the Sun's energy not make a truly dead plant become alive again (assuming a sufficient supply of water, light, and the like)?
What actually happens when a dead plant receives energy from the Sun? The internal organization in the plant decreases; it tends to decay and break apart into its simplest components. The heat of the Sun only speeds the disorganization process.
So, there it is.
Jason.
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larc
Jason,
In Katz and Kahn's book, The Social Psychology of Organizations, they apply opens systems theory to organizations. While closed systems have entropy, opens systems have negative entropy. That is, in the input, through put, and output of energy in an open system some of the energy remains within the system to keep it organized and thus nullifying the tendency towards disintegration.
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roykaye
Hey Guys
Jason's having fun at your expense. I agree with Englishman. Bye Jason and shut the door softly as you leave. -
funkyderek
Where do I even start with this?
Jason, I am very familiar with the second law of thermodynamics and am aware that with every breath I take I am contributing to the destruction of the universe. And I agree that it applies to us and everything around us, and is one of the most immutable laws of physics. However, while the entire amount of entropy in the universe must always increase, the entropy in any part of the universe can actually decrease. Here's a simple example which I borrowed from http://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/rockcandy.html
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Rock Candy:
A Tasteful Example of the Second Law of Thermodynamics
Making rock candy is an example of entropy decrease that you can try in your kitchen. The basic idea is to boil some water and dump in sugar until no more will disolve. You could filter the solution or pour off the liquid into a jar. Then you hang a string into the jar and let it cool.As the jar cools heat leaves it. So, by the second law of thermodynamics, the entropy of the solution goes down. This allows patterns to form inside the jar, and one observes this as crystals of sugar on the string.
The way to think about what happens is to think at the molecular level. The molecule surfaces are able to fit together. As the heat goes out, the molecules slow down and are able to stick together. Eventually they form a macroscopically visible crystal. If sugar seems too biological for you, use salt (NaCl) or water (H2O) instead. These simple substances occur in the absence of organisms, but upon cooling their solutions form nice crystals.
Living organisms use exactly the same principle to grow. Extremely well characterized examples include:
binding of nucleotides to DNA (in the presence of a DNA polymerase) to replicate DNA,
the binding of proteins to DNA to turn on or off genes,
nucleotide incorporation during RNA transcription by RNA polymerase,
amino acids and tRNAs binding to tRNA synthetases,
ribosomes binding to mRNA,
tRNA binding to mRNA on the ribosome,
the folding of the resulting peptide into a protein,
binding of proteins to each other to make larger complexes such as DNA polymerase, RNA polymerase and the ribosome.
That is, every known biochemical function involves this entropy decrease principle. Thousands of papers have been written on the subject.
-----------If there is actually a powerful Evolutionary force at work in the universe, and if the open system of Earth makes all the difference, why does the Sun's energy not make a truly dead plant become alive again (assuming a sufficient supply of water, light, and the like)?
Jason, you seem determined to misunderstand evolutionary theory. Yes, there is a "a powerful Evolutionary force at work in the universe" and it's called natural selection. Natural selection is a truism. Abiogenesis, however, is rare. So rare that we only know of one example. Dead things never become complex life forms, and evolutionists don't expect them to. Either you have only a superficial understanding of the science involved, or you're deliberately blowing smoke. I hope it's the former.
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Ubi dubium ibi libertas -
Jason
funkeyderek,
"...by the second law of thermodynamics, the entropy of the solution goes down."
Yes, this is true. But in the long run it will reverse. The crystals form as a result of decreased entropy but in the end the entropy will increase all over again. It will not continue to become more complex over time.
"Living organisms use exactly the same principle to grow."
This also is true. But eventually the entropy in all these systems increases and the die and rot.
"Dead things never become complex life forms, and evolutionists don't expect them to."
If dead things don't become complex life forms then how did evolution begin? You said evolutionists don't expect dead things to become alive but what about primordial soup. They believe it became alive. Even if all the elements needed to create life were together in a puddle no amout of time would turn this into a living organism. The entropy of the soup would not decrease because it would have no reason to. Natural selection has nothing to do with making dead things live. If you squash a mosquito you still have all the elements necessary to create a mosquito, almost in the right order too. But because of the chaos added to the mosquito by the act of squashing it, it is dead. And no matter how long you wait it will not live again.
The point is in a living organism, or in the instance of chrystals as you mentioned, entropy will temporarily decrease but the end result is chaos.
Jason.
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larc
Jason,
I brought the subject of Carbon Dating begun by Amazing back to the top of the board for your review and comment.
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larc
Jason,
I also brought back to the top, another thread on Carbon dating and one on evolution for you to consider.
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Country Joe
Hey Jason,
Just saw Jurrasic Park 3 and I gotta say;
Dinasaurs on Noah's Ark?
BAD IDEA!!!
Can you imagine the havoc even a BABY T-Rex or a V-Rapture and their mates could do to all them animals destined to repopulate the world?
After a year on board the Ark, my guess is that even Noah would have become the equivalent of a Blue Plate Special.Just what sort of cage do you suppose would keep them anyway, and forget Cypress wood.
Cast Bronze?
Yeah! That might work! At least till it quit raining.
I'm not thinking that they would be real Happy Campers for very long after eating much hay and a cup or two of grain.I'm starting to think that one of the BEST things that ever happened to this planet was having that Asteroid strike near the Yucatan about 65 million years ago.
For that matter, I suppose Man would come in as the WORSE thing that ever happened to the planet.
OH Well! There ought to be another Asteroid along directly.Meanwhile! If you go see the movie, see if you can get the make and model of that Cell Phone. That thing will stand up to ANYTHING.
Everytime I go to use mine, its always dead.Do I believe in Macro-evolution you ask?
How do YOU define that exactly?
"Life originated and evolution proceeds by random chance"?
NO! Not so much!"Life must have come from amino acids synthesized in the atmosphere and dissolved in a giant pond"?
Maybe Not!"A process that results in inheritable changes in a population spread over many generations"?
I think that goes on all the time, Don't you?Didn't YOU posit that the Ark contained all the Prototypes of our current diversification in order to save space?
If so, then you must believe in Evolution. Yes?Do I believe in Thermodynamics?
Sure! My refrigerator and freezer work just fine.As far as the Second Law of Thermodynamics go,
You said "the end result is chaos"
How about at the instant of Creation? Was that not Total Chaos also?
Yet Order did apparently arrive out of it, Yes?
If you want to make the current universe a "closed system" then entropy will increase causing a steady decline.
But isn't the Universe continually expanding?
In other words, Stars and what not are burning up, but yet NEW ONES are also being made. Yes?
If so, Then what is that entropy doing now?
Increasing? or Decreasing?Question:
Before "The Fall", did death exist in the natural world?