Does Jehovah accept human sacrafice or not?

by gumby 87 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  Hi Googlemagoogle,

  do the jesus stories/pauline theology directly mirror any of these human sacrifice accounts?

  I don't think so, for by the time of the NT the Torah stance (against human sacrifice) was fully settled. But of course this does not speak against indirect resurgences of the repressed views. Just as Jesus' death and resurrection unexpectedly revives an old baalist pattern (cf. Hosea 6:1-3), the description of Jesus as "firstborn" or the parallels with Isaac can point to this direction.

  and do you have any book recommendation about canaanite religion compared to OT texts?

  Mark S. Smith's The Early history of God (new revised edition 2002) is a good start. Several works by John Day and Margaret Barker are very enlightening too.
• 

  gumby

  Ezek. 20:11, 13, 16 20-21 show that Israel freely chose to reject God's laws. Therefore, in verses 25-26 it shows that God abandoned them to their own worst evil inclinations. The evil in this case was permitted by God but not sanctioned, in order to make them aware of the horror of their crimes and to make them return to acknowledging him. God did not favor human sacrifice anymore than he did idolatry.

  If he didn't favor it and abhored it Kenneson, why did he accept Jepthah's sacrifice of his only daughter. Why didn't god tell Jepthah what he told Abraham..."stop, blah blah blah". He let him go through with it. No biggy to god....he has lots more kids.

  What a joke.

  Gumby
• 

  euripides

  do the jesus stories/pauline theology directly mirror any of these human sacrifice accounts?

  That's a sensitive issue and will depend somewhat on your view of intellectual history, i.e. the history of ideology as it can be incorporated into religious values. While Narkissos is correct that child/human sacrifice in practice was a settled issue in Judaism by the first century, the same is clearly not the case for Vicarious Expiatory Sacrifice. Consider the case of the Maccabean martyrs of the accounts of both 2 Maccabees chapters 6 and 7 and 4 Maccabees chapters 5 through 12. In 4 Maccabees 6:7, the elderly priest Eleazar says ragarding his imminent death, "You know, O God, that though I might have saved myself, I am dying in burning torments for the sake of the law. Be merciful to your people, and let our punishment suffice for them. Make my blood their purification, and take my life in exchange for theirs."

  Keep in mind that this text (4 Maccabees), though contemporary with the Gospels, is drawn from a Jewish text (2 Maccabees) dating from before the Gospels, and it is this text of the account in 4 Maccabees which formed the subject of an entire Master's Thesis of mine on this very subject about 5 years ago. My argument in that work was that the paradigm of Jesus as a vicarious expiatory sacrifice was able to be understood by the community of believers in the first century (specifically the community of Mark and the meaning of Mark 10:45) because there was already the concept available to them through the model of the Maccabean martyrs.

  To the extent that Jesus' sacrifice has saving value on behalf of other people, you may or may not choose to see in that a parallel to human sacrifice as it existed in both Israel and their neighbors. I think there is a strong argument, from a mythological perspective, to see that human sacrifice has always been one of the most potent expressions of religious significance.

  Euripides
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  googlemagoogle

  thanks narkissos and euripides. especially the reference to jesus as the "firstborn" made me think of a parallel.
  
  the comparision of the gospels with 4. maccabees is interesting. i'm not sure if i'm confusing later christian theologies or even the watchtower with pauline theology, but what about the ransom doctrine? at least some versions of this dogma, including the WT one, suggest that jesus was sacrificed to god (other versions suggest, that the ransom was payed to satan).
  
  so god required a human sacrifice. that would fit into the old baal rites, doesn't it?
• 

  Scully

  gumby writes:

  She ain't bothered at all about dad sacraficing her when she returns.......just that she ain't ever gettin any.

  Obviously, you've never spent any amount of time around those secluded girls' camps in the mountains. I'm betting she got plenty before her dad sacrificed her to Jehoober. A girl can do a helluva lot of gettin' it on in two months....
• 

  RunningMan

  Why is there so much debate about the presence of a human sacrifice in the Bible? After all, the central story of Christianity is one of human sacrifice - Jesus life was sacrificed as a ransom for sins. It's not exactly hidden.
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  gumby

  Why is there so much debate about the presence of a human sacrifice in the Bible?

  For the same reason there is much debate here about the witnesses. We all know their theology is nuts......but we still expose it. The bible god isn't known in the eyes of believers to sacrifice humans. Why not let them know?

  Scully,......so.....your saying Jepthah's daughter found herself a big burly studly lumberjack and played nasty with the guy?

  Gumby
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  Leolaia

  In the early exegetical traditions, Jesus was typified not only by the paschal lamb but also the scapegoat that was sacrificed under the Law. The epistle of Barnabas develops the latter line of thinking from what I recall.
• 

  euripides

  but what about the ransom doctrine?

  This is precisely the issue behind Mark 10:45 (and Matthew 20:28 as a parallel). The Greek term used here is lutron, which is commonly translated as 'ransom.' There is a complex nexus of ideas which culminate in that verse, involving the Son of Man, service, the giving of one's life, and a ransom, yet these ideas theologically hang together by drawing upon a pre-existent foundation (intellectually speaking). Although the term in 4 Maccabees 17:21 is different (antipsuchon), the gist meaning behind both terms in substitutional payment or ransom.

  For those interested in the gruesome details of the use of the word lutron in the Septuagint, here you go:

  lutron in the Septuagint translates four distinct Hebrew roots: g-al (redeem, act as kinsman), b-p-r (atone, redeem), m-h-r (acquire by paying purchase price, dowry), and p-d-h (ransom, redeem, particularly land) (I apologize for my weak transliterations). Only the second of these (bpr) is recognized as having a suitable noun form, namely b-p-r-h, or ransom/expiation.

  I'm not sure if this is sufficient to answer the question succinctly, but yes, the ransom doctrine is clearly bound up in the idea of sacrifice being discussed.

  ps. I am thrilled to be listed among Leolaia and Narkissos as a reputable opinion. That certainly is some good company.

  Euripides
• 

  Narkissos

  Very interesting points Euripides.

  Prior to the Maccabean crisis though a similar concept of vicarious sacrifice appears in the Servant Songs of Deutero-Isaiah, apparently referring collectively to the Judean exilees/returnees as the "remnant" (Isaiah 52--53); and subsequent to it in the Qumran references to the individual Master of righteousness. All of this paves the way to the early Christian understanding of "Jesus' sacrifice".