watchtower red flags

by Ticker 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    Ben:

    Nice defense in your two essays here, with a couple of notable exceptions. From your first post, two things stike the wrong chord:

    Understanding the way a word is used eg "generation" does not chnage the fact that Gods purpose is still on task. It means that they have a broader understanding of the way a word was used and how it could fit into prophecy.

    Sorry, man, but this is horse poop. There isn't a dub alive (well, that's a stretch) who doesn't know that the WTS taught for DECADES that the end of this system started its final countdown in 1914 and the clock would expire before generation that saw these events died, in either 70 or 80 years "according to the bible." You also know very well that 80 + 1914 = 1994, or the service year that began at that time, running through the early fall of 1995. Are you seriously suggesting the WTS' fall 1995 announcement that the word "generation" has a completely different meaning than the one they'd been teaching for scores of years was merely "new light" and not a CYA?

    This was new light in exactly the same way the Mormon leadership had a "vision" that ended the polygamy doctrine back in the 19th century, coming conveniently at the time that Federal troops were en route to Salt Lake City to shut down the LDS empire.

    Secondly, your entire paragraph 3, is delusional. You can't stand up in this organization and say what you really think, not if what you think runs counter to the party line. This is a religion where the questions are answered by rote, but the vast majority of answers may never be questioned. And, dude, you know that! Don't you?

  • CinemaBlend
    CinemaBlend

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    2) yes Jehovah does not change. He has had the Bible written for us but dose not speak directly to any human. It is up to us to learn what he has written. Truth never changes, but mans perseption of it does. JW doctrins ( no trinity, hell, imortal soul; paradise earth, only few go to heaven etc) have not changed. Some aspects of their understanding of prophecy have changed nothing wrong with that because they are trying to understand what a prophecy means and how it relates to the world. That why Jesus said we had to dig for undertsanding as we would for Gold. None of the changes they make affect the way we view God, or his purpose for us. Understanding the way a word is used eg "generation" does not chnage the fact that Gods purpose is still on task. It means that they have a broader understanding of the way a word was used and how it could fit into prophecy. The apostles that walked and talked with Jesus missunderstood things that Jesus said. Peter even shot his mouth of over someting that went out to all the belivers at that time, but Jesus never said what Peter thought he said (Read the last chapter of John) yet Peter was still used by Jesus
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    What kind of God writes a book that cannot be easily understood by his worshippers? Why would he choose to make it DIFFICULT for his people to understand what he wants? If God is by definition, all powerful, then it should be easy for him to make his purpose and will understood to his people in such a way that anyone and everyone could immediatel understand it and serve him properly. It is the height of stupidity to allow your followers to bumble around making mistakes simply because you didn't bother to explain to them what you wanted to do in a way they could understand easily.

  • steve2
    steve2

    Hey Guys - easy now! I think you'll scare off JW Ben with your clarity and well-researched comments.

    Remember how, as JWs, you had to give the householder the truth in bite size portions. JW Ben may be experiencing spiritual indigestion right now.

  • CinemaBlend
    CinemaBlend

    I don't agree with him...

    But actually so far I'd say JW Ben is winning the argument.

    Though I think I wiped out his #2 pretty well.

  • Samuel Thorsen
    Samuel Thorsen

    . First off doesnt it seem a bit wierd that most of the anointed in the bible according to the watchtower live in the us and near pensylvania.

    Where in the litterature can I find this statement??

  • TheEdge
    TheEdge
    First off doesnt it seem a bit wierd that most of the anointed in the bible according to the watchtower live in the us and near pensylvania

    I have posted my question on a few threads - I wonder what proportion of 144,000 are representative of their Earthly equivalent - Is every Nation on Earth to be ruled by 143,990 white Americans?

    I don't think there's a question of Jehovah changing - His Plan has always been HIS PLAN - all the ''changing'' is in the minds of the WTBTS.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Are we not supposed to examine the scriptures and test the teaching as to if its true?

    They only want you to do this using their publications, because as they've acknowledged throughout the years, if someone reads the bible by itself, they do not come to the same conclusions or interpretations as what the Governing Body does. This was a big problem for them in the late 1970's at headquarters. They had allowed small groups to examine the bible without any of the literature and lo and behold they realized that some of the doctrines in the Organization are based on a twisting of the scriptures. These people were all disfellowshipped for apostacy.

    Yet the watchtower demonizes this act as apostasy toword god. This burns my a$$ because the bible says directly to the contrary. So we are supposed to take humans who make claims of authority at face value and not ever question their teachings?

    Only if you're a Witness. If you're a Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Lutheran, Anglican, Adventist etc. then you are told to question their church's teachings using any materials you want. Only in this religion is it denied.

    Makes perfect sense eh?

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    Only if you're a Witness. If you're a Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Lutheran, Anglican, Adventist etc. then you are told to question their church's teachings using any materials you want. Only in this religion is it denied.

    Mary, JDubs are adventists, show them their histroy, whats the cogs turn, and wait for the excuses.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Truth never changes, but mans perseption of it does. JW doctrins ( no trinity, hell, imortal soul; paradise earth, only few go to heaven etc) have not changed. Some aspects of their understanding of prophecy have changed nothing wrong with that

    Oh pu-lease....don't try and make it sound as though "some aspects of their understanding" is something minor, because it's not. Their back peddling and flip flopping on doctrines has ruined hundreds of thousands of people's lives over the years. One day it's okay to celebrate Christmas, the next day it's forbidden, vaccinations are forbidden, then they're allowed, ditto for alternative military service, getting a decent education. One sister told me that years ago, a sister at the Hall divorced her husband on the grounds of beastiality (he was having sex with their dog). At that time, the GB had declared that beastiality wasn't really fornication and the elders told her she had no scriptural grounds for divorce. She thought otherwise and was promptly disfellowshipped. Being cut off from her family and friends was too much for her and she ended up committing suicide. Oh and that doctrine? Well the stinking old goats in Bethel once again showed that they haven't a clue what they're doing, and they changed their ruling that beastiality was indeed fornication.

    You think Jehovah really approves of these turkeys ruining people's lives like this? Give your head a shake.....

    None of the changes they make affect the way we view God, or his purpose for us. Understanding the way a word is used eg "generation" does not chnage the fact that Gods purpose is still on task. It means that they have a broader understanding of the way a word was used and how it could fit into prophecy.

    LMAO.....ya right. It doesn't mean mean anything of the kind. What it DOES mean, is that the morons in charge of this religion were wrong for 80 years about what the word "generation" means, but they didn't want to admit that they'd screwed up royally, so they try and pull yet another scam on 6 million people. This entire religion was started because people believed that "the End" was their generation and they made virtually all of their life's decisions based on the promise that the Governing Body gave them. It wasn't Jehovah who said it was "this generation", it was men who like to "put themselves in the seat of God", who did. And it's cost them big time.

    If this were any other religion that had made fantastic prophecies, you'd be pointing the finger at them going "see? they're false prophets", but seeing as it's your religion that has been setting false doctrines for 130 years, you've got a mouthful of excuses for them.

    The only time a JW should get into trouble about having his own ideas, is if they try to convince others they are wrong and not the WTS.

    In other words: You're not allowed to question the WTS, even though they've never gotten even ONE lousy prophecy right over the years. That's a pretty dismal track record don't you think?

    Jesus commanded all his followers to preach.

    No, he most certainly did NOT command every single man, woman and child to become evangalists as is demonstrated in Ephesians 4:11: And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers

    No one argues that all christians must be apostles, or prophets or shephers or teachers, yet the WTS will argue that everyone must be an evangalist even though the bible clearly says otherwise.

    The 10 hrs is a month is not a burden and is not a rule, it is only for men that are to recive extra responsability as it is a way of demonstrating that they are in a possition to accept greater responsability.

    The 10 hours a month IS a burden, and it most certainly IS a rule for anyone wanting to be as MS, or an elder. I know one guy who was specifically told that he was not being made an elder because he wasn't "getting the required time in". This is just another man-made rule that they've imposed, because there is absolutely NOTHING in the bible that even hints that you're supposed to get a certain number of hours in or that you have to report it.

    The Governing Body members are no different than what the Pharisees were. They put "heavy burdens" upon the shoulders of the people, always telling them they have to do more, more, more........and they don't give a damn that people have breakdowns from all this stuff.

    So I'm not sure what planet you're from, but don't bother trying to make excuses for this religion..........we can see right through them.

  • heart2heart
    heart2heart
    I speak from personal experience here of being "emotionally abused" by local elders because, they failed to follow instructions as set out in various publications. I have had issue with them not the Org.
    Sometimes a body of elders in a particular congo do not listen to the instructions given and will act when they should not, that is their fault not the WTS .)

    JW Ben: So you said before that "For me the Bible best expalins these things" - so why is it that the organization is allowed to write out "instructions... in various publications" - wouldn't that be adding to what God has set forth already in his Word? You are saying that the Governing Body/WTS is in charge, through their instructions, not God.

    Of course JWs are alowed to have their own ideas if they do not agree with the WTS. and they are allowed to talk about it. The Bible shows that the apostles had their own ideas at times. But in time they were corrected.
    So for me any extra detail or modification has nothing to do with religous teaching.

    Oh but it does for the WTS!! If you do not agree with them, and question them, you are considered "bad association", a "false prophet" etc. If you speak your mind, and voice your opinions or do not agree with the WTS the other JWs will stay away from you. Is this freedom to have your own opinion? And the very fact that you say "but in time they were corrected" says it all: you really are not allowed to have your own opinion or disagree with the GB/WTS - you're saying that any idea outside what has already been pronounced by the WTS is wrong. Only the WTS is right.

    They do not say 10 hrs a month witnessing or meetings a week are necessay for salvation. Where do you get these ideas from? perhaps you were not paying attention when we are told to just do your best according to your circiumstances. There are many many JWs that, because of their circumsatnces, can not get to 5 meetings a week and can not spend 10 hrs a month and they are in good standing with their congs.

    Maybe they are in good standing - but how many people call them to see how they are? How many people in the cong. would invite them out to socialize? The more hours you have, the more meetings you attend, the more "worthy" you are to everyone else, the more friends you have (and not because of spending all that time in service together, but because you are considered to be a good Witness for all the time you put in). I know this from personal experience. My circumstances did not allow me to spend much time in service, I went to all the meetings I could, but I went unnoticed by the rest of the cong. because I wasn't a prize JW. No one invited us for dinner, or to do something together. No one called. I struggled with taking two small children to the meetings and out in service by myself each week, with barely any help, and no encouragement. If your circumstances do not allow you to do as much as everyone else, you're just as unworthy as the one who decided not to do anything at all. If you can't keep up, you're not good enough. (My personal experience spans several different congregations, in different cities & provinces so it is not an isolated case).


    My JW relative claims : Well the organisation is made up of humans and we are all imperfect, so the organisation makes mistakes. OK, but then why is it the one true religion?? Why can't the Catholic religion also be excused by God for making mistakes? Why are JW mistakes acceptable to Jehovah and Baptist mistakes not? Are our mistakes better? What a stupid logic!

    Pope: You said it perfectly! It just doesn't make any sense!

    Heart2Heart

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