watchtower red flags

by Ticker 69 Replies latest jw friends

PopeOfEruke

JW Ben,

I really appreciate the graciousness displayed in your posts; I've really enjoyed this thread and just want to say Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I wish you all the best.

As Bob Dylan says "Don't follow leaders; watch the parking meters..."

Cheers!
Pope
Sunspot

**My first and complete loyalty is to my God Jehovah, not to an organisation or any man. My loyalty to the WTS only stretches as far as it complies with Gods word.
Hello JW Ben,
THIS is exactly how *I* felt too, for about 30 years.
I began to find several things that didn't "add up" and then I began to research the WTS, other than WTS-approved publications. Documents and cold, hard facts.
This is something that is lacking in the WTS. They can and do, make all kinds of claims, but these cannot be backed up with *facts* that can be proven.
After six months or so of checking I then prayerfully decided to leave the Society. MY personal integrity and the clean conscience that I asked for at my baptism in 1972, could not be upheld had I remained as a JW.
I didn't "leave Jehovah, as the WTS likes to claim---but I *found* the real God and the real Jesus upon leaving. The WTS IS very clever----but they are NOT "THE only religion that God approves". Not at all.
Annie
Mary

Some of you strongly disagree that the WTS want let JWs have their own ideas. I will find matterial that shows that they can. Remember i said that it is OK for a JW to have differing vies as long as they do not try to convince others that they are right.

For crissake, LISTEN to yourself man........if you are not allowed to share your views on doctrines openly with others in the Organization without fear of being disfellowshipped for apostacy, then you most certainly DO NOT have any sort of freedom at all!! The Governing Body are not only like the Pharisees, they're no different than what the Catholic Church was in the Middle Ages. Look what happened to Galileo and look at the church's response:
Therefore . . . We pronounce this Our final sentence: We pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo . . . have rendered yourself vehemently suspected by this Holy Office of heresy, that is, of having believed and held the doctrine (which is false and contrary to the Holy and Divine Scriptures) that the sun is the center of the world, and that it does not move from east to west, and that the earth does move, and is not the center of the world.....you have incurred all the censures and penalties enjoined and promulgated in the sacred canons and other general and particular constituents against delinquents of this description. From which it is Our pleasure that you be absolved, provided that with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, in Our presence, you abjure, curse, and detest, the said error and heresies, and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Church of Rome. --1630

Now we know of course that Galileo was right and the Catholic Church was wrong, but all they saw was that he was promoting something different than what THEY held to be true.
This is exactly what the WTS does to people today who disagree with them on any doctrine, and you know it. Even if it's proven that you're right and the WTS has been wrong, they STILL will disfellowship you for "running ahead of the Organization." In other words, it doesn't look too good when an "apostate" can interprete the scriptures better than the "Slave Class".
Sunspot

***Remember i said that it is OK for a JW to have differing vies as long as they do not try to convince others that they are right.
If someone DOES have a differing view, and it is VALID---wouln't it be hypocritical to keep it inside and let it bother them? What kind of "faith" is that?
Do YOU remember that the WTS says to "other religions" that if you see teachings that you think are in error, then you must not put your faith in that church any longer?
With this in mind---*how* could one be a "loyal" JW and see discrepancies in the beliefs? Why do you think the WTS is so gung-ho on presenting themselves as being "unified"?
What about the scripture that says to put your trust in NO MAN (which your "GB" is). Your relationship with GOD and Jesus is what every individual needs to work on.....and not "how to please the WTS by putting in hours and bigger time slips.
The WTS is not God, and God isn't equivalent to the WTS.
Annie
kilroy2

ben the org. is gods rep on earth, if you dont trust the human part of gods org. you are just one of us apostates, so sit down and have a brewski, and we can all have a good old slam fest about old light and new light
orangefatcat

Please allow me to congratulate Mary and Kilroy for their superb logic. . He is indoctrinated and brainwashed like all Jehovah's Witnesses. Allow me to quote JWben,
My first and complete loyalty is to my God Jehovah, not to an organisation or any man.

Say that in front of the elders and see what happens to you. You will be disfellowshipped for apostacy. The Society doesn't want your kind around. You are a threat to the organization and yet you pretend to be the perfect above average JW. Give me a break. Your dellusional. The organization and the 10 Little Indians have destroyed many peoples lives as Mary stated. How can you say that you believe one way and another way not always the way of the WTS and not be a hypocrite?
You have serious issues. You need to think honestly what is truth and what is not. If you think that you are completely loyal to Jehovah, then why the hell are you here. Loyality to Jehovah and the organization demands obedience when it comes to going to any anti JW sites. Apostate sites. Are you so invincalbe that you can't faulter. Are you that mature that you can't fall? Your here because your not sure if it is the truth or not that the FDS teach.
Either your for the truth of the WTS or not for it. Playing with fire will burn you. Beware!!
Orangefatcat.
JW Ben

Hello Annie and others,
I realy can understand your points of view, and I understand why there is so much negativity, but somne of the information that comes out in this forum is based on missinformation and or missunderstanding of what the WTS acctually print.
****If someone DOES have a differing view, and it is VALID---wouln't it be hypocritical to keep it inside and let it bother them? What kind of "faith" is that?****
The Bible is my bassis. The apostles had varring ideas on matters at times and arguged about them. They had to wait untill they were set straight. At times they had to be told many times. In the days of Jesus people did not form their own conclutions as to what to beleive they were "persuaded" to belive.
All this critisicm would make a lot more sense if people did not beleive in the Bible. I am sure there are people here who do not, and that is fine with me. But for those here that claim to believe the Bible then the Bible is what should be the messuring stick. What happened in Bible times, exactly the same thing that is happening now. Followers of Jesus at times did not understand what he said. Some could not stick it out and stopped following him. Thats fine it is their choice. The apostles did not understand all that he said but did not run away because they did not like his teaching. I am sure we would not view them as hypocritical for staying with Jesus becayse they did not understand what or why he taught what he did. They came to understand in time. Even then they made mistakes. Why should we expect anything different today
**Do YOU remember that the WTS says to "other religions" that if you see teachings that you think are in error, then you must not put your faith in that church any longer? ***
I remeber what they say. Again i have to say what i did yesterday are we taking about doctrine such as no trinity, no hell etc etc or about changes in understanding on phrophecy and etc. Ther is a big difference. God wants us to worship him in truth. That is the truth of how hw is how Jesus is and moral codes. Understandings of words such as generation and time lines do not add or take away from the doctrine of the Bible. They help us keep in mind what it is Jehovah wants is is going to do. If you do not beleive in the Bible than this hole forum is a waist of time.
***With this in mind---*how* could one be a "loyal" JW and see discrepancies in the beliefs? Why do you think the WTS is so gung-ho on presenting themselves as being "unified"? ***
The beliefes are to do with the main teachings of the Bible.. eg no trinity etc. all the core things. There are many JWs can and do have varing ides on noncore subjects. Speaking in unity on all these things is an important part of being a Christian. If our personal understanding varies we do not cause dissunity by trying to convice every one that our way is right. The WTS is not dogmatic about their views either, but for the sake if unity not allowing every one to sprout thier own ides is a Biblical command. Agin the Bible has to be the meassuring stick if we belive it.
***What about the scripture that says to put your trust in NO MAN (which your "GB" is). Your relationship with GOD and Jesus is what every individual needs to work on.....and not "how to please the WTS by putting in hours and bigger time slips.***
JWs understand that as well. Unfortunetly few really take it to heart. The WTS has continually encouraged JWs to check for themselves so that it becomes their own. Any JW that tries to please the WTS has not been listening to what the WTS says or has not understood what has been said.
***The WTS is not God, and God isn't equivalent to the WTS.***
The WTS fully agree with you. They do not try to be God nor make themselves equivalent to him
Sunspot

**What happened in Bible times, exactly the same thing that is happening now. Followers of Jesus at times did not understand what he said. Some could not stick it out and stopped following him.
I agree. But that *was* Jesus, and the proof of this has been seen by his teachings, healings, his sacrificial death and resurrection from the grave. This was PROOF that he IS who he said he WAS.
You cannot possible put the GB-WTS-FDS on the same level as Jesus, can you? The followers of Jesus had far more proof that they could rely on, than the followers of the WTS teachings have today.
If someone chooses to leave the WTS because the doctrines have changed (such as the baptism questions, for example) this wouldn't be anywhere *near* not "understanding" what Jesus said and ceasing to follow his teachings! Just because the WTS feels that it can make all sorts of extravagant claims (such as being the ONLY religion God approves of) it doesn't make those claims true.
**Any JW that tries to please the WTS has not been listening to what the WTS says or has not understood what has been said.
If any JW decided that he loved God but didn't feel it was necessary to go door2door, or turn in a time slip, or felt that it was unkind to stop speaking to DFed or DAed family members.......(all of these being WTS commands or there will be consequences) then wouldn't they be "discplined" for these actions?
Aren't these WTS rules and not biblical commands? Aren't JWs trying to "please Jehovah
" by doing things that are man-made WTS rules? They had *better* listen to what the WTS says (right down to where they can and cannot go to eat during the conventions) or they face penalties and trips to the back room.
The WTS has set itself up with the understanding as where one MUST be in order to gain salvation----but has also set up many rules and regulations that are NOT found in any bible, in order to fulfill the JWs WAY to that salvation.
It is very painful to realize this, and see what one thought of as THE "truth".....for decades, was just toppled before my eyes-once they were opened.
Annie
moshe

JW Ben said that " Bible is his basis for understanding." My friend ,you like most in Christians have not researched how especially your NT came into being and how half of the known material was deep-sixed`by the council of Nicea . Emperor Constantine ordered 50 copies of G-d's scriptures, so the canon was closed and the scribes got busy. GO READ THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS from the Nag Hammadi found in Egypt- see what the apostles started with- everything after that was good tasting filler. I only wish that the eyewitness apostles had written about the Jesus they knew, instead of hiding out in Jerusalem, looking over their shoulders. Most of what you read and take for "Truth" was written by what we call "cut and paste" artists today and they didn't even put their name to it. Do you know what the "Q" document is? I doubt it. Shoot, none of the so-called witnesses can even agree on the wording of the sign over Jesus at his execution. Only later by the 4 th century did the Bible become all-inspired as taught by the Church- later "believe or face the inquisition". There is no shame in saying " I have doubts and until G-d shows me otherwise I choose not to believe" Take a six month sabbatical from the KH and go up on the mountain- come down a human being. G-d led me to Judaism , and you can find YOUR path too. Don't spend another minute feeding the egos of some old decrepit men in Brooklyn.
Shalom,
Moshe
RELIGION IS A BELIEF SYSTEM TO EXPLAIN THE UNEXPLAINABLE- Moshe
steve2

JW Ben: Your willingness to communicate and discuss ideas with ex-JWs really impresses me.
Increasingly over the years I've noticed how scared of in-depth discussions many JWs have become. I'd like to think that your example will be emulated by other JWs.
I have long thought that Bible truth should be able to stand up to scrutiny, and that if "truth" needs to be protected from inquiring minds, it is not truth at all, but a vain fabrication.
Your willingness to exchange ideas is a refreshing exception in a religion that shrinks from meaningful discussion.

watchtower red flags

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