The pope
by Stromboli 58 Replies latest jw friends
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Pole
Stromboli: You are listing positives to nagate negatives wich are unrelated. I don't know how it's called in that site
Pole: Now where did I negate the negatives in my original post? Please show me?
Stromboli: You didn't list negatives and I didn't say you did. I wrote "listing positives" wich you did.
LOL. I said "negate the negatives" (by listing the positives) which is exactly what you said. I did not say "list the negatives".
Note that you are still making that mistake as the quality you listed and being "a cynical politician" are not mutualy exclusive. I don't have a site to point you to but I can tell you that knowing the name of a logical fallacy comes after being able to de-compose the argument.
Urm. TO see if it's a fallacy really, we need to be clear about your language then. Here is what you wrote in your first post:So please dear catholics out there make a prayer that your leader, next time he goes to his little window to make another un-understandable speach, that he say "Sorry I'm such a prick!".
Could you define what you mean by "prick"?
Pole -
outnfree
Stromboli --
Your posts are rife with errors and show a great deal of ignorance about how the Catholic church works. I am not a Catholic, I AM an ex-JW.
One of the reasons I left the Organization was because I saw, from Charles T. Russell's own writings, that the Watchtower Society's hierarchy (Governing Body, Bethel Overseers, District Overseers, etc.) had evolved into the very sort of organization that Russell and the early Bible Students considered scandalous as regards the Roman Catholic Church. Please know that the Governing Body is every bit as corrupt and self-serving as the Magisterium of the RC Church when it comes to protecting Body Members' power and privileges (beginning with Pope Charles ).
The present Pope, aging and becoming less and less fit for duty, has no choice but to carry on as the leader of the world's Roman Catholics, because the Papacy is bestowed for life . He cannot step down. While I disagree with his insistence on a celibate priesthood and against modern birth control, I applaud his personal integrity and the example he set in personally combatting political injustice, speaking out against genocide, apologizing to the Jewish people for Rome's complicity in the Holocaust, advocating peaceful negotiation rather than war, and travelling extensively to bring his office within reach of his faith's adherents.
I can even understand why he might equate abortion with the Holocaust. The Nazi's goal with the extermination of entire Jewish families and especially the immediate gassing of most children, was to rob the Jews of their future. For a religion which sees the fusion of egg and sperm cells as the beginning of viable offspring, and which considers the gift of life miraculous and God-given, abortion can also be seen as robbing humankind, and more particularly Roman Catholics, of their future. Abortions definitely tally in the millions, if not billions, in the Twentieth Century, although admittedly, not all abortions were performed on Roman Catholics.
I think your broad generalizations are inappropriate and mean-spirited. I also have trouble recalling Catholics coming to this website to start threads criticizing the Governing Body. The older I get, the more I value kindness.
outnfree
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Stromboli
Pole
Ok my mistake you didn't list them and didn't say you did. Ok......one step at the time....
you wrote
But he has had an interesting life as a man. He wrote good papers in pedagogy. He was a fairly good actor/playwright. And he definitely is a charismatic figure and much different from many of his predecessors.
now I'll re-frase my question
Did you list the positive to implicitly negate my nagatives? (where prick and the rest I said is negative and your remarcs are positive)
Edited to add: from outnfree
Your posts are rife with errors and show a great deal of ignorance about how the Catholic church works
I think your broad generalizations are inappropriate and mean-spirited
Ok
The older I get, the more I value kindness
Yeah it shows -
Valis
Out, actually you are not correct in saying the Pope cannot resign. He can, but this is one tough old Pope..he was once quoted as saying when asked about abdication..."Did Jesus come down off the cross?"...*LOL* Sassy Polish bastard he is...I read some of some ofhis early adventures...he liked fishing and getting out in the woods...One wonders what goes on in his mind being so incapacitated...AND I hope I never end up that way. The problem with the Pope or the GB, etc is that apologies for bad things that happen in their orgs are few and far between. Also, when they dont affect real change they become more like lame ducks than religious leaders. Here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about abdication BTW..
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01031a.htm
Finally, a valid Abdication of the Pope must be a free act, hence a forced resignation of the papacy would be null and void, as more than one ecclesiastical decree has declared.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
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Pole
Stromboli,
Ok my mistake you didn't list them and didn't say you did. Ok......one step at the time....
you wrote
But he has had an interesting life as a man. He wrote good papers in pedagogy. He was a fairly good actor/playwright. And he definitely is a charismatic figure and much different from many of his predecessors.
now I'll re-frase my question
Did you list the positive to implicitly negate my nagatives? (where prick and the rest I said is negative and your remarcs are positive)
You implied the pope should admit he was "a prick". I thought it was a sweeping generalisation and pretty personal at that. So I first refrained from commenting on the character of his duties:
Since I'm not a catholic, I don't feel obliged to have an opinion on the pope's achievements as a pope.
And then I implied he has a worthy biography as a man which prevents me from calling him names just because the catholic hierarchy is in many respects such a hopeless misrepresentation of charitable christianity.
An analogy (hopefully not a strawman):
It's pretty much the same with socialist politicians. They fare much more than 99% of the people whose interests they claim to represent. But would you call each socialist leader "a prick" just because all social systems are inherenty injust (yeah - apart from such systems as utopian communism)? Are all far left-wing politicians pricks because they don't redistribute their personal surplus wealth to the poorer part of society? If not then what exactly makes a politician a prick?
Now translating it into the pope's case, I listed a few positives (relating to him as a worthy man - but not in the sense Mussolini considered a good man) to show your description made an exaggerated impression.
Now, one other question to try to get a slichtly more positive view from you: what do you expect a pope to do/say to live up to your expectations without being considered a prick?
Pole
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Stromboli
Pole now look here:
An analogy (hopefully not a strawman):
Clearly a false one as you are trying to assess a man that is the head of a religion without considering this aspect. (conclusion without using all the premises).(not mutually exclusive anyway)
It's pretty much the same with socialist politicians
A) Not it's not, he is not just a politician.B) N o politician would be allowed in office with his disability for the sake of the cause/country (to be proven e mpirically only , but you do that, in theory it's possible that a politician is allowed, ignore this one if you wish). C)The socialist system and the christian system are different therefore any conclusion has different premises (unless they coincide, you need to prove that).
to show your description made an exaggerated impression
Exaggerated compared to what? your partial assessment? yes of course then.
Sorry m8 but what I said to Country_Woman applys to you too "If you don't know much about logic why on earth do you have such strong opinions about it" I admit that if you didn't point me to that site I would have never pointed out all this errors, out of respect. I haven't done it with others and boy I could have...
The answer to your last question is "resign" because it's not about him (see comment from Valis) it's about us all
BTW thanks Valis, I'm glad you said it and not me
for the record:
in theory the pope represents Peter see Mat 16:18 in practice him and his closests have compared him to Jesus (this doesn't make any difference to my argument)
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Pole
Gee, Stromboli there's no need to get carried away.
You said:
you are trying to assess a man that is the head of a religion without considering this aspect. (conclusion without using all the premises).(not mutually exclusive anyway)
I wrote:
Since I'm not a catholic, I don't feel obliged to have an opinion on the pope's achievements as a pope.
But he has had an interesting life as a man.
That's right. I am making a selective assessment. Then I said you can make similar partial assessments about politicians:
Pole: It's pretty much the same with socialist politicians
Stromboli:
A) Not it's not, he is not just a politician.
B) No politician would be allowed in office with his disability for the sake of the cause/country (to be proven empirically only, but you do that, in theory it's possible that a politician is allowed, ignore this one if you wish).
C)The socialist system and the christian system are different therefore any conclusion has different premises (unless they coincide, you need to prove that).
A - this point is too general to argue about it.
B - Yeah, but how does that make a person deserve the all embracing label? Would the Catholic Church be any different if the current pope resigned?
C - Boy, that's the point of an analogy. There are always differences. I was under the impression you had a problem with the political aspects of JP2's life. Actually here is what you said in the first post:Recently a man in Italy died because the ambulance could not find a bed for him in a hospital so by the time they arrived to the one bed that was available 200Kms away he was dead. So please dear catholics out there make a prayer that your leader, next time he goes to his little window to make another un-understandable speach, that he say "Sorry I'm such a prick!".
I used the example of socialist politicians because I thought your reasoning smacks of socialist simplifications. You call the pope (head of the Vatican) a prick because the Italian health system sucks??? You seem to be much more liberal at making those logical connections than me.
::to show your description made an exaggerated impression
Exaggerated compared to what? your partial assessment? yes of course then.
Exactly - I made a partial assessment. As opposed to your all-embracing one. You've finally got it.
Sorry m8 but what I said to Country_Woman applys to you too "If you don't know much about logic why on earth do you have such strong opinions about it" I admit that if you didn't point me to that site I would have never pointed out all this errors, out of respect. I haven't done it with others and boy I could have...
Please show no "respect" for anything silly I say. I really can do without it. Just don't steer away from things I said, in order to prove your points by imagining things I never said. I'm getting sick of being pictured as a pope apologist by you time and again. Don't put me in this position, dude, or I'll start believing it and convert to Catholicism which is certailny not my Universe.
You really got pissed off by the information I pointed you to, right? (You keep repeating it for the n'th time). It's a good site, so don't discredit it just because you disagree with me. We've both taken our turns to educate each other above the laws of logics. "Let the reader use discernment" to figure out who sounded more coherent.
Despite all the hot air we've produced so far, I'd still like to hear two answers from you which you've never given:
1) What did JP2 have to do with Stalin and Hitler (you didn't bring it up first, but you seem to have said you could answer that - or did I get it wrong).
2) What would any pope have to do to avoid being considered "a prick"?
Respectfully ,
Pole
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Stromboli
Pole
I made a partial assessment
How does you partial assessment negates my all embracing one?
I was under the impression you had a problem with the political aspects of JP2's life
wrong impression, I have a problem with him as a christian leader. sorry, I may have worded it wrongly
Boy, that's the point of an analogy
I know, It doesn't make any difference he is not just a politician and it's not too general
You call the pope (head of the Vatican) a prick because the Italian health system sucks???
you made that conclusion discuss it with yourself
You really got pissed off by the information I pointed you to, right?
Yes I did, a bit of arrogance on my part well and your, but more on my part.
What did JP2 have to do with Stalin and Hitler (you didn't bring it up first, but you seem to have said you could answer that - or did I get it wrong).
Nothing. JP2 wasn't a pope when they were around
What would any pope have to do to avoid being considered "a prick"?
He shoudn't piss me off