In the last days there will be a witness to all the inhabited earth........

by holly 97 Replies latest jw friends

  • fairchild
    fairchild
    (Holly) so the church have had it with me. i renounce it completely - and according to what born agains believe, that puts me in line for everlasting torment in hell.

    Renouncing the church will put someone in line for everlasting torment in hell, according to born agains.

    Renouncing what the watch tower teaches isn't much better. The one doing this will be destroyed forever.

    Not for nothing, I'm just a little human being trying to do the 'right thing'. Now, if I go to the born agains church, I'll be destroyed forever, because the JW's said so. But should I renounce the born agains church and start going to the KH, I'll be in line for everlasting torment in hell, because the born agains said so.

    Exactly what is wrong with this horrible picture? I am starting to see some true horror in this.

    John 14:6 Jesus said to him : "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father, except through me"

    He did not say "No one comes to the Father, except through His organization on earth" Now that I think about it, this scripture seems pretty clear. "I am the way, and the truth and the life."

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Actually options # 2, 3 and 4 (thanks Dave for the classification) are not incompatible imo.

    Yes, preaching some "good news" (Gospel) is what is done by all Christian churches and sects. And please don't tell us you never heard about the "kingdom of God" (JW cliché!) in 17 years: I attended several churches much less than that and it was a pretty common topic. What you certainly didn't hear is the JW explanation of the "kingdom of God" as a "heavenly government," which suits neither the Bible nor the current meaning of the English word "kingdom".

    Yes, the Christian preaching nowadays is quite diverse and contradictory (and, if you think of it, JWs only add their own share to the diversity and contradiction), as it has always been. Read the New Testament and compare Matthew or James with Romans, or John, to see how "united" the early Christians were on nearly anything.

    Whatever the case, where in the context of Matthew 24:14 (or parallels) does it suggest that there should be an interval (of 19 centuries!) between the preaching of Jesus' 1st-century disciples and the preaching until the end comes? The text assumes continuity, JWs (and some other Christian apocalyptic sects) imply an interruption.

    Nothing in the NT suggests that the 1st-century Christians wouldn't see the end coming, and there are many, many affirmations that they would (Leolaia pointed some above). The "end" should have come in "this generation". On this at least they were wrong. And you can't make them right without twisting what the NT authors actually wrote.

    Again, if you choose to dismiss any answer but JWs', that's your choice. No problem with that. Good luck to you.

  • holly
    holly
    Who told you this?

    thats what the church taught me for 17 years. so if its not true, what is true? what happens to people who arent born again?

    holly

  • holly
    holly

    pole im not trying to duck any questions. i dont know who you are talking about. and english is hard for me unless it is simple, so i get lost sometimes in what is being said, thats all.

    i believe the church is wrong bec they dont practice what they preach and some of what they preach is not biblical -like praying to mary and saints, and going to war, and women vicars, and gay marriages etc and so on.

    but i still believe the bible. so i look around to see who is doing what the bible says disciples of jesus should be doing. and i see jws.

    holly

  • holly
    holly
    Jesus Christ is the saviour of all who exercise faith in him not the WTBTS.

    The Kingdom relates to Jesus and his love for mankind, his loving rulership over mankind since he ascended to heaven. By means of Him he has done away with evil and sadness and death in Paradise.

    so jesus is the saviour of all who exercise faith. and how do i do that? and what happens to those who dont?? also, the kingdom relates to jesus and his love for mankind - sorry i dont understand that statement, can you give me the scriptures to explain it please. thanks holly

  • holly
    holly
    "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father, except through me"

    and can you tell me what this means pls? so i dont need an organisation to come to god, and i get there through Jesus. how?

    holly

  • holly
    holly
    And please don't tell us you never heard about the "kingdom of God

    no actually i didnt.

    its not a jw cliche. i have 5 bibles of different version before me. all say the good news of the kingdom will be preached.

    holly

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    myelaine...This "great crowd" in Revelation 19:6-8 is already in "heaven," see v. 1.

    holly....Here's my take on it. The kingdom is "God's rule" which has both ethical and apocalyptic dimensions. Check out what the whole "good news of the kingdom" is in Matthew. It's not about a coming government that will crush worldly governments, but mostly about how to treat others and "do the will of God". This is the whole focus of Jesus' teaching, his parables, the Sermon on the Mount. Note also how "Let your kingdom come" in the Lord's Prayer (cf. Luke 11:2) is interpreted in Matthew 6:10 as establishing God's "will" on earth. One's destiny in the "kingdom of heaven" (note that Matthew almost always refers to it as the "kingdom of heaven") depends entirely on how one lives one's life (cf. Matthew 5:20, 6:33), and God's rule is manifest in those who do his will. "Not everyone who says to me, ?Lord, Lord,? will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). The kingdom was already present through the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28), and since early Christians believed that they were given the Holy Spirit, so was the kingdom already present through their works. The community of Christians living according God's will were given authority to forgive sins -- something previously restricted to God -- and they were allowed to do on earth what is done in heaven (Matthew 16:19, 18:18; compare with 23:13, wherein the Pharisees who do not do God's will "shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces"). Through the apostles and through the Holy Spirit, the kingdom was already present, but it was "hidden" and "tiny" to the rest of the world, so that most do not recognize it (Matthew 13:31, 33, 44). There is still an apocalyptic element here too. The kingdom represented on earth by the Christian community precedes the judgment of the whole earth by the Son of Man who would confine the unrighteous into Gehenna while everyone else doing God's will would receive the blessing of the kingdom. Thus, the Christians are presently the "sons of the kingdom" (Matthew 13:38) who precede the "harvest at the end of the age" and during the harvest, the Son of Man "will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil" (v. 41). This leaves only the righteous who will inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    This is the ethically-focused Jewish-Christian perspective in Matthew, which stresses salvation by works (cf. also James). Paul had a very different point of view and replaced this ethical concept of justification with justification by faith. Since modern Christian churches are influenced more by the salvation-by-faith of Paul and John than the view in Matthew, this may explain why you did not hear so much about the "kingdom". Paul clearly describes the kingdom as heavenly (1 Corinthians 15:50; cf. 2 Timothy 4:18), so it is understandable if the "kingdom of God" is understood to refer to heaven; Paul frequently referred to the Christian destiny as heaven, (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:1, Philippians 3:20, Colossians 1:5, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), and regarded Paradise as presently in heaven in accordance with common Jewish thought of the day (2 Corinthians 12:2). Intertestamental texts (such as in 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra) describe that in the future the heavenly Paradise would descend from heaven to the earth, with the sword removed from the Tree of Life and with everyone righteous being able to eat again from the Tree of Life, and Revelation clearly relates a similar concept of heavenly New Jerusalem descending to a "new earth" (not to be confused with the present earth, which would be destroyed, cf. also 2 Peter 3), where the righteous would dwell in God's presence, and outside the city walls would dwell the wicked and those punished forever. The concept is a little similar to Matthew 8:11-12 which has the righteous feasting with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob inside the kingdom of heaven, "but the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Of course, not all Christians had such a concept as found in Matthew or Revelation, and well-developed chiliasm was a minority view in the early church; it prevailed mostly in Asia Minor.

  • adelmaal
    adelmaal

    Leolaia: How do you do it? I want to be like you when I grow up. Scripturally that is

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot
    He did not say "No one comes to the Father, except through His organization on earth" Now that I think about it, this scripture seems pretty clear. "I am the way, and the truth and the life."

    There have been some EXCELLENT comments on this thread!!! I am not a scholar as some of you are and I lean towards the basics and the simplistic explanations. Fairchild (I think it was?) made the above quote in her post, and IS the "basic" point as far as I can see it.

    We all know what the "two laws" of Jesus are. Once the layers are all peeled away....Jesus' teachings are just that simple. Its the WTS that has tacked on all these rules and policies (such as, time slips, how many meetings and planned assemblies are required, and where one can or cannot eat lunch AT these assemblies, and to shun brothers who have done nothing scripturally wrong; just to name a few)

    Jesus taught genuine love, acceptance, mercy, forgiveness, kindness and doing for others of any religion where you see their need.

    We all know what the WTS teaches and its pretty much the opposite of what Jesus taught, but then they have all these rules and policies in place to override what Jesus set down. By this point in time, they have muddied every water possible---all flying under the banner of "Christian". Too bad it took so much precious time for many of us to AWAKE! up and realize this.

    Annie

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