How do you women feel about acting stupid to please men and the borg? (page 7)

AlanF

Dave said:

: how's the training going with ...

Not good. She balks at correction. Even when I use the Bible.

AlanF

Scully

oroborus writes:

This is just good advice for getting along.

So you think it's "good advice" for women to pretend to not be as smart as they are, to protect their husbands' precious EGOS? You think it's OK for insecure guys to put all kinds of dumb rules on women they claim to love and compel women to show deference for the man in their lives instead of being proud of their accomplishments and what they have struggled to earn in terms of education and secular employment?

Riiiiiight.

Wouldn't it be FAR better to just be able to appreciate our mates for their gifts and talents that they bless us with and share with us, rather than be intimidated by them to the point where one has to dumb down to protect the EGO of the other??

jeanniebeanz

Careful, Scully. This one gets personal when you question his male headship... lol

J

Scully

jeanniebeanz

LOL!!

Not to worry. I don't know Oroborus well enough to be concerned about his opinion of me.

AlanF

Oroborus21, I disagree with much of what you wrote.

Sometimes the Society does present a reasonably balanced view of relations between the sexes, but not usually. Most of the time the focus is on maintaining the hierarchy of power: GB -> WTS Corps -> Upper level elders -> congregation elders -> men -> women -> children. In simple terms, this means who gets to tell who what to do, and therefore who is required to be subservient to others. If you think about it, their advice on getting along is largely about getting the subservient ones to quietly accept what they're told, on all levels of the JW organization.

It's true that men and women tend to have different wants, needs, and strengths, but the Society makes almost no allowance for the fact that individuals can be all over the map here. What people want and are good at ought to take precedence over what others expect of them.

You said:

: What I am saying is that if you really look at the Society's advice all that it is really saying is that if YOU (the woman) are better at doing something than your partner, YOU DO NOT NEED TO SHOW IT OFF OR SHOW HIM UP.

This is horrible advice, because it has the cart before the horse. Everyone ought to be honest enough with himself to know his strengths and weaknesses, and ought to be humble enough to allow that others -- including and especially one's mate -- might be much better at some things. True, some peoples' ego might be fragile enough that the mere fact that their mate is better at something is enough to bother them greatly, but the problem is with them, not their mate. The mate certainly should take this into account, but my point is that, in a healthy relationship, both people need to take account of each other's strengths and weaknesses. Your advice is completely one-sided.

The Society's advice is completely one-sided, too, since it has the same weaknesses yours does. If they were balanced, they'd also tell the man that if he's much better at something than his wife, he doesn't need to show it off or show her up. The fact that they don't proves that they're not much interested in having married people get along, but in following the hierarchy of authority. The fact that you don't understand this indicates that you've still got a lot of JW thinking to get rid of.

You also said:

: Doesn't it just make sense to say that one who is better at something shouldn't make the other person feel bad for not being as good at the thing?!!

That cuts both ways. Why do you focus only on the one way?

: That is all the Society is saying that the Bible is saying.

No, they're saying what I described above.

AlanF

talesin

LMAO at Oroborus

I can't believe you said that, in public!

Yes, flattery will get us everywhere. Behind every succesful man, blah, blah, blah.

Why, all us wimminfolks that growed up in da troot knows dat, suh!

I have to say that, sadly, the Tower doesn't have the market cornered on this attitude. And a lot of women buy into it.

Thanks for being right on point, Scully.

t

Oroborus21

Hi Scully,

No I am not saying that a person/women should pretend to be dumb (in fact I think the thread title is misleading since that isn't what the article quoted is saying). Nor do I think that a person should hide their abilities to some detriment.

But in a situation where there is NO REAL HARM, I don't see why a person of superior ability must show off or show up their friend/partner/mate/husband/wife. Yes this may mean holding back or refraining in some way from "being all that you can be" at that moment.

To me it is like if one person tells a funny joke and the group laughs, there are some that MUST feel like they must tell their funnier joke. Personally, that isn't me. I let the person enjoy their moment.

Now as I said, I am not saying that there are definite and big problems in the Org with gender inequality. I am quite feminist leaning in fact on future reform in that area and believe me I know many a sister that could deliver a better talk, or even be a far better counselor/educator than many elders that I know. But I am not talking about that larger issue. I am talking about the interpersonal relationship "advice" that the Society is reiterating based upon what the Scriptures themselves say.

And yes there is a scriptural basis for a "scriptural headship" arrangement like it or not, explain it as you will.

NOW HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT I WANT TO BE THE APPARENTLY ONLY HONEST MAN ON THIS FORUM THAT IS WILLING TO ADMIT that I have a BIG MALE EGO. My wife and I are very competitive. She is better at me at many many things and the converse is (more) true of me She hates it when I "beat" her at a game or whatever we are playing. I happen to be a much better sport and I think take losing to her more graciously. (Actually she is a very poor loser.) Believe me, even though english isn't her native tongue AND I consider myself a writer and someone who works with language every day, my wife KILLS ME AT SCRABBLE. I live with it but I DON'T LIKE IT. I can't believe that she is better at Scrabble than me but she beats me 99 times out of a 100. She is also better at poker and card games than me. She is better at math, way better and much much better at handling money than me. I freely and graciously admit all of these things but that doesn't mean that it doesn't bruise my male ego.

Hey I am a man. I am not afraid to admit it that I don't like losing or being proven to be less apt at something by a woman or anyone. I recognize that is just life. I am better than someone at some things and they are better than me at some things. Everyone has something they are more capable at being. (At least, I can laugh at myself and admit when I am less apt or beaten.)

If I am in a relationship, I don't think that is is very NICE for the other person to display or show off their capability. It doesn't mean that they aren't who they are and it doesn't mean that they are somehow lesser. If they keep their talents in check and don't show up their partner all that is is being a good Christian and a good person and showing love and consideration towards the other person. Period.

-Eduardo

jeanniebeanz

If they keep their talents in check and don't show up their partner all that is is being a good Christian and a good person and showing love and consideration towards the other person. Period.

Woman, get's yer ass back in dat der kitchen and stop giben me yer lip! *smack*

Oroborus21

AlanF:

I agree there is a systemic problem in the org and that things are disproportionate and inequal. I also agree that much harm, especially in domestic relationships has come from it.

I do recognize, as I understand it, that there is a biblically-base "spiritual headship" (yeah bible written by men, reflective of patriarchal society, yada, yada, yada).

I think and hope and expect that one day there will be a real "happy medium" where the headship arrangement is in place but that women share a much more equal role with respect to power and authority in the organization.

I do further agree that the Society's publishings and slant on the whole issue as been pretty much one-sided. Even the rare "equalvocal" tribute article to women is really just a big joke so long as all the power and authority rests solely in the hands of men.

-Eduardo

jeanniebeanz

I think and hope and expect that one day there will be a real "happy medium" where the headship arrangement is in place but that women share a much more equal role with respect to power and authority in the organization.

"more equal" is not equal. You still have the male headship arrangement set up in your statement.

Even the rare "equalvocal" tribute article to women is really just a big joke so long as all the power and authority rests solely in the hands of men.

That is exactly the point, Eduardo. You recognize that as long as the authority rests in the hands of men that that true equality it is a joke. Yet in the first statement you hope for exactly the same thing, that the power or final say, will be mans.

Sheesh.

J

How do you women feel about acting stupid to please men and the borg?

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