Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing

by dunsscot 113 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  larc

  Duns,

  After rereading your last post, I have some additional comments. If the girls mother is a sleeze, she most likely is bringing home a number of low calibre men. With this scenario, I would not be surprised if the girl has been abused. Just because her low life mother says that everything is fine, doesn't make it so.

  You said I "resorted to" the term, major change in affect and/or personality, in place of the word - depressed. I used the term for clarification. I was using the word "depressed" assuming a happy child with a sudden change. As I said, the more detailed verbiage was to clarify what I meant in the first place.
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  I went back and reread my original comments about the girl. I did not use the words "falsely accused", but they were implied in what I said. To clarify my original statement. If the girl says that she was raped and she wasn't she may have significant emotional problems. If she was raped, her mother is in denial or is lying.

  One question you did not answer: If the elders determine that someone is a pedophile, what should be done to that person?
• 

  dunsscot

  larc,

  :Duns,
  The girl at your house: You said that you only brought that up to make a point. If so, then others should be allowed to ask questions about this case, which I did.:

  I did not fault you for asking questions about the case. I am criticizing your observation that something must have been wrong with the girl because I did not comment. My failure to respond had nothing to do with any difficulties the child might be presently undergoing.

  You wrote:

  <<Duns,

  The girl in your home: there is something wrong - you failed to comment.>>

  Do you care to expound upon this nebulous, ambiguous statement? It implies that there is either something wrong because I failed to comment, or that the "something wrong" is somehow associated with the topic we have been discussing. At any rate, the girl is functioning quite nicely in our JW environment. She has stayed with us before--up to a year--and she adjusts well to a home that is stable, one that emphasizes transcendent values and authentic respect and love for the other. So, something is/is not wrong with the girl.

  <<I said that a girl who falsely accuses a man of rape may have emotional problems. It is a diagnostic indicator. Your last post indicates that I was right.>>

  I do not think you are right, larc. Without hearing the full story, your 'diagnosis' will of necessity be flawed IMHO. First, the girl did not just make up a story about a man raping her. Something occurred that she erroneously INTERPRETED as "rape." But when we asked what the young boy did to her (after talking to her mother), without coaching her, she admitted that he did not try to violate her in a sexual manner. This young lass simply was employing the wrong terminology to relate an event she truly had experienced in the company of a certain young man.

  <<The girl has a rotten home life. Notice, in this thread and the last one I used the term "falsely accused." Why did you miss that? You mention again that this does not mean that she was raped. I do believe that is what the term "falsely accussed" does mean.>>

  I may have overlooked this part of your email in the hustle and bustle of replying. I will concede that point.

  :I will state is (sic) again. If a child has a sudden change in affect and/or personality, this is a "diagnostic indicator" that something is wrong. I did not say it meant that the child was abused. If the parents can't figure out the problem with a few questions, they should seek medical advice.:

  I think you are wrong. Why rush to a doctor in this case? Why bypass the elders so quickly? Let's also remember that your original example dealt with the child coming home after visiting a Witness. My comments must be taken in their proper context.

  :The problem could be anything from a vitamin deficiency to rape and a whole myriad of possibilities between these extremes. For a parent not too seek professional advice is irresponsible.:

  A change in "affect" or even a depressed episode after returning from brother and sister Duns' house does not mean parent X should rush his or her child to a doctor. That is simply absurb!

  You are of course only providing bits and pieces of the puzzle and not giving sufficient details that we need in order to adequately reply to your comments. For instance, you have not told us how depressed the child has to be, how drastic the change in affect or personality is, nor how long the duration of the depressed mood has to be before a parent takes his/her child to the doctor.

  :Bergman: In the forward, I state my disagreements with Gerry, which are significant. He chose to include it anyway.:

  Maybe we can talk about your disagreements with Bergman sometimes.

  :Sydik and Greenlees: Since I never wrote on this subject, why don't discuss this on another post, rather than commingling it with your comments to me.:

  I keep bringing up Sydlik and Greenless since that was the primary reason I started this thread. So far, not much has been said to help answer my question about these men.

  :Organizations: You did not need to define what symbiosis means. I fully understand the term. I also am fully aware of the relationship between the individual and an organization.:

  If you knew what symbiosis denotes, why did you misinterpret my statement to mean that the organization is more important THAN the individual? I did not say that!

  Duns the Scot
• 

  Anchor

  <I think you are wrong. Why rush to a doctor in this case? Why bypass the elders so quickly?>

  Harking to Maximus' post above, why on earth would you even think of going to elders? What qualifies them, no matter how well meaning? An appointment letter from the Society?

  Read gsark's disastrous consultation with elders!

  Anchor
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  Regarding the girl: You said that I assumed that "something must have been wrong." I never said that. I never assumed that. I said it was a "diagnostic indicator", a warning sign, as it were.

  "you failed to comment": You're reading too much into this. I was simply pointed out that is was an issue that you had not addressed.

  The girl's Diagnosis: I am trying to point out likely possibilities. The problem is you keep adding detail that changes the complexion of the story. First, you say that she has a bad home life, and I draw out some implications of that. Then, you say she is living happily with you. Finally, you say that she misunderstood the word rape and misused it. In my very first response, I mentioned that as a possibility. You chose to ignore my comment. As a result, you have wasted a lot of my time and yours.

  Diagnosis: I did not say "rush to a doctor", and I don't have to operationally define depression. Parents know better than anyone when something is amiss with their child. For my children, I would seek out a medical doctor rather than the elders.

  Organizations: I am saying that the organization is more important than the individual. If you don't agree, so be it.

  I may not be posting for awhile, I have to catch up on some work, and may go on a short trip. I will check in a few days, sooner of I don't take the trip.
• 

  dunsscot

  Dear larc,

  I've probably spent more time on this "thing" (res) today than I need to. Ergo I only have one brief comment to make in this post. You wrote:

  <<Organizations: I am saying that the organization is more important than the individual. If you don't agree, so be it.>>

  I do not concur with your assessment of the relationship between an/the organization and the individual. They are mutually dependent. Thus the individual is not dispensable.

  But that is a whole 'nother thread.

  Duns the Scot
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  I was writing at the same you were on Chris's thread. Yours came up a few minutes earlier than mine. I certainly didn't want you to miss those finely crafted words I used.
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  I enjoyed the word play on Commie Chris' thread. Now I would like get back to some specifics.

  1. Should the parents of an 18 year old daughter who had paranoid delusions take their daughter to a psychiatrist or to the elders?

  2. Should the parents of a ten year old boy who complains that his butt hole hurts from Uncle Charlie, take the boy to a doctor and then call the police or should they talk it over with the elders?

  3. If a teenage girl comes home with the emotional signs of being raped, should the parents call the police who will perform a forensic examination or should they wait until the next day and call the elders?

  Duns, you are good at the macro level, but very weak at the micro level.
• 

  dunsscot

  Dear larc,

  :Duns,
  I enjoyed the word play on Commie Chris' thread. Now I would like get back to some specifics.:

  By all means, feel free to deal with specifics. But first, I want to make a couple of preliminary observations.

  1) You have now switched scenarios somewhat. You are no longer talking about junior coming home feeling depressed or undergoing a manifest change in affect. The examples you proffer below are more serious in nature than the ones you presented ad initium. Nevertheless, I shall try to address your queries with sincerity of heart and integrity of purpose.

  2) Duns knows that you do not wish to be enlightened with respect to JWs and their policies vis-a'-vis sexual aggressors or pedophiles. Your questions thus seem to be trap queries, designed to put Duns in some kind of figurative bind. Duns will therefore answer you in a manner befitting the questions you have posed.

  :1. Should the parents of an 18 year old daughter who had paranoid delusions take their daughter to a psychiatrist or to the elders?:

  Do you mean "had" or "has" paranoid delusions? The two distinct temporal indexicals in this senetence serve disparate functions as they delineate time of action, as you well know. If you mean "has" (instead of "had"), my answer is: "They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick" do need a medicus. On the other hand, the holy Scriptures indicate that God has benevolently provided elders in the Christian congregation, who are supposed to serve as 'hiding places from the wind.' These men should assist the girl spiritually. If the child need help with her paranoid delusions, however, the family parenting the said lass may elect to visit a trained professional of some kind. IMHO, the ultimate decision rests with the parents: "For every man shall bear his own burden ["load" NWT]."

  :2. Should the parents of a ten year old boy who complains that his butt hole hurts from Uncle Charlie, take the boy to a doctor and then call the police or should they talk it over with the elders?:

  The little boy (puer) obviously has not come back from brother and sister X's house, manifesting signs of a change in affect. He specifically claims that his rectum is pained "from Uncle Charlie." One question you have not answered, however, is whether Uncle Charlie is a Witness or non-Witness. If he is a Witness, you are aware of the factors that enter into the parents' decision. Conversely, the special circumstances or challenges that may face a Witness couple when a fellow believer is involved are manifestly not present when a non-Witness is involved. The answer to your query will thus depend on the relational status of Uncle Charlie to the boy and his family.

  :3. If a teenage girl comes home with the emotional signs of being raped, should the parents call the police who will perform a forensic examination or should they wait until the next day and call the elders?:

  Again, there is not enough information contained in the query for me to provide a sufficient answer. What do you mean by "emotional signs of being raped"? Let's not play guessing games here when it comes to presenting scenarios. Please spell out what you mean, and please disambiguate your the components of your constituent structure. We might also ask who has supposedly raped the young woman? Is it a Witness or a non-Witness? Furthermore, what state did the crime take place in and what are its laws regarding sexual aggression?

  :Duns, you are good at the macro level, but very weak at the micro level.:

  Admittedly, I am a global thinker. You know the drill.

  Duns the Scot
• 

  Eusebius Hieronymus

  Holy Jaboney, larc. Whoa!

  I've enjoyed this interplay so far, but there has been a sea change. Clearly you are getting as serious as a heart attack on this one. You could easily have just given this guy the digitus impudicus/infamis, but now you have upped the ante (you must play mindless cards) and are nailing his callow ass to the xylon. Put up or shut up.

  Now Duns is demonstrably naked and out of his league, which heretofore has been relegated to words for the sake of words, for the truly experienced vs. cognoscenti to see. He is not an elder!

  Without question he has no experience in these areas; that is abundantly (ab unda: from the flood) clear for all who are experienced to see, and his tediously prolonged verbosity now rings hollow. He is seen to be the apologist that he insidiously is.

  QED.

  Jerome
  Fighting to eschew the show-off jargon.