Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing

by dunsscot 113 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  dunsscot

  Dear Todd,

  :To accuse one of it (or any crime, for that matter) without evidence is also abhorrent. History is rife with examples of innocent people who didn't fit societal norms and who suffered cruel injustices--up to and including death--as a result. I think some may have missed the general thrust of dunscott's argument or else I did. I may have missed it (I haven't read every word of every post here) but I don't think he's apologizing for pedos or even the Society's means of (not) dealing with them. He's just asking for something a bit more concrete than a simple accusation and it's resulting lynch mob mentality. I think it's a worthy request.:

  Thanks for getting at the heart of my concern, Todd. Sorry that this thread has taken a different turn.

  Besto,
  Dan

  Duns the Scot
• 

  dedalus

  Dunnscot,

  Well, if we all lead the kind of lives you advocate, there'd be no reason to write poetry, drama, literature. The problem with the positivist writers is that they fail to convey anything to do with the actual drama of being alive. Moliere's satires of middle class life, with all its attendant folly, can make me laugh, but he never convinces me that he knows what it is like to be in love, or has ever been in love himself.

  And your mind, which can do no more than regurgitate philosophical tidbits, atrophies without any real experience to think upon. The result: you come off as a bore and a snob.

  Dedalus
• 

  dunsscot

  Dear dedalus,

  :Dunnscot,
  Well, if we all lead the kind of lives you advocate, there'd be no reason to write poetry, drama, literature.:

  I fail to see how my thoughts expressed in the previous post negate the need for poetry, drama or literature. I love all three mediums of literary communication. Poetry and literature has so much to offer us in the way of transcendent values, as they are universally expressed by men and women, who efficaciously wield the pen. But good poetry does not have to cater to the base instincts of man.

  :The problem with the positivist writers is that they fail to convey anything to do with the actual drama of being alive. Moliere's satires of middle class life, with all its attendant folly, can make me laugh, but he never convinces me that he knows what it is like to be in love, or has ever been in love himself.:

  There is a difference, IMHO, between being in love and being promiscuous. I do not have to live the life of a profligate to convince someone else what profligacy is like. In fact, I once lived in dissolution, but tired of it. Debauchery is the very negation of life!

  :And your mind, which can do no more than regurgitate philosophical tidbits, atrophies without any real experience to think upon. The result: you come off as a bore and a snob.:

  I engage in a number of wholesome activities. Surely you are not telling me that I have to party with the boys to know what life is all about. I've done it, and came to the conclusion that being a party animal is vanity. Why would I want to return to the vomit and filth of debauched living?

  As for your comment about "philosophical tidbits," I assure you that I can do more than regurgitate theoretical tidbits. Why, I can also bring forth philosophical profundities and in-depth analyses of particular philosophical works. I have elected not to do so on this board though. :-)

  Seriously, you really do not know me. All you have observed is a persona concocted by a certain philosopher JW, who wants to take a different approach to apologetics. My interests range widely, and I am well read in a number of academic areas. I love taking in a nice play or even going to a theme park every now and then. I'm just convinced that the good life does not reside at the bottom of a scotch bottle.

  Dan

  Duns the Scot
• 

  julien

  Hot diddly!

  Let's play checkers and sing kingdom melodies..
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  I find your arguementation for keeping the accusation of pedophelia within the confines of the jurisprudence of a body of elders to be particularly week. The majority of these men are poorly educated and ill equipped to provide justice. Now if a young boy or girl says that they were sodomized, don't you think they should be sent for a medical examination?. If a child goes from happy to depressed after a visit with someone and has unspecified problems, don't you think they should be referred to a clinician who has special training? If the parents come to believe that someone has forced their child to have oral sex, should that child be examined for trace evidence? I really don't think the elders are qualified to do any of this.
  The same kinds of questions should be considered regarding rape and mental illnes.

  Duns, you may want to refer to another thread started by Amazing that was addressed to you, if you haven't already.
• 

  Had Enough

  Dan:

  You quoted Todd and agreed with him when he said of you:

  I don't think he's apologizing for pedos or even the Society's means of (not) dealing with them. He's just asking for something a bit more concrete than a simple accusation and it's resulting lynch mob mentality. I think it's a worthy request

  Please....don't think that we are all of such low "lynch mob" mentality that we will settle for only a simple accusation ourselves. To fight so strongly against this cause without even first hearing the evidence does a great injustice to those victims suffering in silence for so many years. Put yourself in the place of a parent whose child accuses someone and exhibits evidence of being molested only to be silenced by unqualified men following orders from the WTS. Could you then protect and support this org?

  Several of the elders in one previous congregation I attended barely finished grade 8 education...How can they be expected to have the insight to deal with such complex issues? I know that wisdom doesn't always have to come from a book...some have a gift of reasoning...but I know from experience that most uneducated men do not know how to treat people with deep emotional or physical problems.

  We here all want the whole truth... the real truth to come out. It serves no purpose to any of us to have the WTS fall because of lies. The REAL truth is for what we all so desperately strive.

  Injustices are possible and what we all hope for is the accused to be proven guilty by compelling evidence only, not emotion and twisting of words.

  Also:

  When you say:

  I love taking in a nice play or even going to a theme park every now and then. I'm just convinced that the good life does not reside at the bottom of a scotch bottle

  Well my dear...so do I, and I'm positive I'm not the only one here on this board that feels the same way. What I object to is your seeming generalization of those of us posting here as boozing, promiscuous degenerates. So what if some like to indulge in the old scotch bottle and some lead a different lifestyle that what you or I or many others of us prefer. Some even just joke about it to have fun, but don't live like that.

  To insinuate that we here have a mob mentality that peers at the bottom of a scotch bottle, insults me to the very core.

  Please before dismissing all that has been said about the upcoming exposure of the WTS, wait and take the time to hear all evidence. To downplay what some have expressed as their own experience, is an injustice to the years of pain and suffering they have gone through. Don't so easily dismiss their outcries until you have at least listened to their "proof".

  Had Enough
• 

  dunsscot

  Dear larc,

  :Duns,
  I find your arguementation for keeping the accusation of pedophelia within the confines of the jurisprudence of a body of elders to be particularly week.:

  Maybe that is because I did not offer any argumentation. Go back and read my post and you will see that I admitted the view we JWs now hold MIGHT have to be readjusted. I was not dogmatic in my comments, but specifically tried to warn you of the danger that results when Caesar unnecessarily gets involved in religious issues. The JW procedure is after all based on a certain theological viewpoint. It is primarily a matter of biblical exegesis. The rights of individuals with respect to their religion also have to be respected. If the universal Christian congregation has an arrangement in place for disciplining sinners, how can it rightly be faulted for judging those on the "inside" while God judges those on the outside (1 Cor 5:9-13)?

  :The majority of these men are poorly educated and ill equipped to provide justice. Now if a young boy or girl says that they were sodomized, don't you think they should be sent for a medical examination?.:

  First I think the claim should be examined by congregation elders or parents and then adjudicated as to its veracity. I have a little girl that is presently staying with my wife and I for the summer. She told me that a little boy tried to rape her one day, and her momma did not report the young man to the police. I was initially infuriated and internally agitated. But my wife, instead of calling the police or DSS, called the child's mother. The mother pointed out that the young man did NOT try to rape the little woman. When we asked the little girl about the incident without telling her what her mom had reported to us, the girl admitted that the boy did not try to violate her.

  Children do sometimes get mixed up or exaggerate events, larc. So why run to get an examination when the congregation IS equipped to handle the problem spiritually? If authorities need to be brought into the matter, there are ways the congregation elders can perform this action without overstepping what they feel is the scriptural view of matters. They can handle the situation in the same way they deal with a brother, who is not supporting his family. Disfellowship the unrepentant wrongdoer and allow the sister to pursue child support in the courts.

  :If a child goes from happy to depressed after a visit with someone and has unspecified problems, don't you think they should be referred to a clinician who has special training?:

  Why make this leap?

  (1) Depressed child after visit with Brother Larry ---> a probe to see if the child has been molested. This approach is absolutely nonsensical. A child could be depressed for many reasons. Brining in a clinician seems a bit hasty. You are not thinking about the effect that this act could have on both the child and the accused, if he or she is innocent.

  :If the parents come to believe that someone has forced their child to have oral sex, should that child be examined for trace evidence?:

  What would make the parents believe that someone forced the child to perform oral sex? It cannot be mere speculation or a depressed child, as you discuss above.

  :I really don't think the elders are qualified to do any of this.
  The same kinds of questions should be considered regarding rape and mental illnes.:

  I'm not suprised that you do not think the elders are qualified to handle these matters. Maybe they are not clinicians or medical/social workers. But the elders are supposed to be spiritual shepherds, who try to apply scriptural guidance when difficulties arise in God's congregation. The ancient judges of Israel were not trained clinicians either, yet they handled many cases of a delicate nature that no doubt affected the very psyche of young men and women. (Who treated young Israelite women after they were raped by virile Israelite men? Who handled such judicial matters in times of antiquity?) JW elders and Dunsscot look at matters from a frame of reference that is qualitatively distinct from yours. It is no wonder you do not understand JW procedure when it comes to handling pedophilia cases. You are trying to adjudicate this matter in purely secular terms.

  :Duns, you may want to refer to another thread started by Amazing that was addressed to you, if you haven't already.:

  Thanks for pointing this thread out to me. I actually missed it among all the posts. I'll respond to Amazing tomorrow.

  Duns the Scot
• 

  Tina

  (((((((((HE)))))))))
  I share your reaction to the insult from DS.
  But oh how typical and how watchtowerish. He's only parroting what 's been indoctrinated into him. That those who leave the corp. live these supposedly debased lives.
  So for all the philisophical verbiage he spews,at the end of the day,it's watchtower speak that shows where his mind is,lol.
  Another form of denial. How difficult it is for jw's to face the fact that most of us live BETTER, more fulfilling,richer and rewarding lives than when we were in. They NEED to parrot and reinforce that dreck in themselves. For without the buzzwords and buzzlines ('return to their vomit' comes to mind as one of the buzzlines),they might be forced to see that they live in such an unatural altered reality.
  As Jt so aptly said,the fact that he's even here says so much....foot out the door and not even aware of it---yet.
  Great post hadenuff! hugs,T
• 

  Tina

  Dun,
  No,elders are NOT qualified to deal with molestation. It's really far-fetched to use the example of an ancient tribal people and compare that with todays knowledge of human behaviors.
  Scriptural reference is NOTpsychological assessment and treatment. Scriptural reference is not medical assessment and treatment.
  Those trained in the aforementioned disciplines are the ones qualified to handle this.
  From your last post to larc,you show your ignorance regarding questioning and assessment. Clinicians are trained to do this,in very specific formats per a childs developmental stage.
  Bottom line is elders need to get OUT of the counseling business on such traumatic issues that call for assessment and treatment by professionals.
  You and the elders are also NOT trained in making a diagnosis of clinical depression in children.Anyone for that matter.
  Your rationalizations show what the others have observed. You are puffed up with your own importance. You have no qualified skills to offer victims/survivors.
  Your presciption-here's some biblical exegesis,take it and call me in the moring sucks. I'm not going to respond to your pompous boorishness anymore. You can weasel,obfuscate evade the issue all you want. Doesn't change the reality of said situation.
• 

  messenger

  Quote from Mommie Dark:

  "Thinks he's smarter than everyone else, AND morally superior! Like I said, a pompous ass. He knows he's making a fool of himself, but he has to pretend to disdain everyone here because his pride won't let him drop the snobbery and be just plain human."

  Haven't you guys figured it out yet????????????

  Dunscot is Greg Stafford

  I rest my case your honor........