The Second Amendment (page 5)

Buster

e-man: are you a competative skeet-shootin' dude? or is it just a hobby?

I gave it up. There were several reasons, one was that my cheek was giving me gip and it ain't no fun taling part in a 200 bird competition. I was selected to shoot for my company at the annual sports day in Norwich in the 80's. I last shot clays around 3 years ago.

Englishman.

Bendrr

It was never meant to mean that some red-neck can own assault riffles and carry consealed weapons

Simon, I really have to disagree with you. And I take exception to your generalization, "some redneck can own assault rifles and carry concealed weapons".

First off, a true assault rifle is not something a common "redneck" such as myself could ever afford to buy. Take a look at this link:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html

$175,000 for a machine gun. A machine gun made by Fabrique Nationale. Dude! It's French!

A true assault rifle, for those who by now still don't know, is one that fires more than one round per pull of the trigger. They're not cheap Saturday Night Specials. I remember reading some statistics once about the miniscule percentage of legally owned full-auto/select-fire's used in crimes and it's almost nil.

Concealed weapons. What would you prefer? That we who are armed go about our day with our guns carried openly on our hips? You and I both know that ain't gonna work. I'll let you in on something. When you were over in the U.S. a couple of years ago for that apostafest in Florida, and you were out in public, you may very well have stood in line next to someone carrying a concealed weapon.

I'm all for allowing concealed carry. Properly licensed and trained citizens armed to defend themselves and others when the police aren't around but immediate danger is are the people I want around me, not someone who will whine about how we need more gun control when some jackass pulls off an armed robbery or goes on a shooting rampage.

I look at your gun control laws this way. Taking away everyone's guns because a very small minority of the population is hell-bent on their misuse is a grade-school solution to an adult problem. Your government telling you and E-Man that you can't have guns because someone else misused guns.

If someone breaks into your home one night or tries to rob you on the street, what are you gonna do? Do you think for one second that criminals will follow your gun control laws? "Right then, at least he doesn't have a gun because they're illegal so I'll use my fists or a club and we'll be even". Come on Simon! You're smarter than that!

There's a saying here in the U.S., "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" and it is so true. Where guns are illegal, they're still in use. Same with drugs and everything else. Crack cocaine is illegal but I'd bet you I could go get some within the next half hour. A lot of good that ban did, right?

Honestly, you'd do better criticizing your own country's gun laws. We'll get the straw out of our own eye, thank you very much!

Mike.

Bendrr

BTW, I'll give up my guns when Ted Kennedy gives up his driver's license!

Mike.

Simon

Bendrr

If your argument made any sense whatesoever then your gun-toting citizens would ensure a safe and peaceful society. The fact that your society is one of the least likely to be descibed that way tends to suggest that having "lots of guns" about makes things better, not worse.

Where guns are illegal, they're still in use. Same with drugs and everything else. Crack cocaine is illegal but I'd bet you I could go get some within the next half hour. A lot of good that ban did, right?

So the answer is to legalise everything is it?! Give up? Duh?!? Maybe you just live in a naff neighbourhood or you are just proving my point about American society and how allowing armed civilians doesn't stop crime but makes it easier. Common sense. We have it, you don't.

There's a saying here in the U.S., "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" and it is so true.

I won't tell you the sayings we have here in the U.K. ... about Americans

Simon

The National Guard does not qualify as the "militia" of the 2nd ammendment, not only because it did not exist at the time as such, but because it currently is for all intents and purposes, an extension of the standing army under federal control.

True. The national guard was used to continue oppression and seggregation for instance.

And Simon, you suggest that the Revolutionary War was fought at least in part because the New Worlders didn't want cheap British tea? ... and this is because we grow so much tea over here? ... we were selfishly protecting our rich, landowning tea growers? - thanks for the chuckle

Erm ... Boston Tea Party? "No taxation without representation" and all that crap? I suggest that you go do some reading and less watching TV for your history lessons.

Let me guess, you watched Mel Gibson in "The Patriot" and thought it must be true right? Who's chuckling now ...

Englishman

Let me guess, you watched Mel Gibson in "The Patriot" and thought it must be true right

Look, if it was a movie, it must be true, right?

Next thing you know they'll be rubbishing Braveheart!

Who starred in that again? That guy who only speaks Aramaic, right?

Englishman.

Simon

You can see a trend can't you? I think Mel Gibson is just Brit Bashing

I can recomend the book "Rebels and Redcoats" that was written by a historian who had the misfortune of seeing The Patriot on a transatlantic flight and thought it needed to be pointed out what a COMPLETE AND UTTER PILE OF TOSH (historically speaking) it was. An entertaining film non-the-less and the bit where the little girl shouts out "daddy, don't go .. I'l say whatever you want" always brings a lumpt to my throat.

We all know Braveheart must have been nonsense ... everyone knows the scotts have never won anything

(where's Little Toe?)

Buster

Erm ... Boston Tea Party? "No taxation without representation" and all that crap? I suggest that you go do some reading and less watching TV for your history lessons.

Oh Simon that hurts. I think I did plenty of reading on the Boston Tea Party. I'm from Boston. Kids in Boston-area schools get a steady diet of the Revolutionary war. But you said in your first post that it was about not wanting cheap UK tea. You said nothing about taxation or representation. Did you discover New Light? Now, it was about taxes? Nevertheless, you are now correct. I suggest you spend more time reading your own posts and less time firing off trite condescensions.

OldSoul

In my opinion, AlanF's original original post on this thread was entirely correct. Whether the nastiness of the English was actual or merely perceived, it was the motivation behind the rights guaranteed to citizens under the Bill of Rights. In my research, the one singular document stands out at representing the basis for every freedom guaranteed to citizen's of this country is also one of the least read.

It is the document which sets forth the conditions that laid the entire foundation for the Second Amendment.

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/arms.html

This documents the reasons for a second amendment to be exactly the reasons stated by AlanF, for a citizenry to be able to always defend itself from governmental oppression, whether that pressure should present internally or externally. Logically carried forward to our day that would mean citizens should be allowed to own the same equipment for defense as that used by the US Government, although I doubt that will ever be a reality again.

On another board a pro-gun control gentleman stated that the idea of the Government siezing the arms of the citizens and forcibly doing them harm never entered into the framers minds. This document, neatly if not succinctly, destroys the legitimacy of any such claims. Not only could they conceive it, they had lived through it. They had seen first hand the abusive and power mad nature of government and tried to provide a means through which grievances could be redressed if the new government ever turned off its ears and heart.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

The Second Amendment

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