Does the Bible interpret itself, or a fiddle you can play any tune with? (page 2)

Rod P

Hey guys,

Sorry, I kinda ducked on that one, in case this question generated a "firestorm". Didn't think I was supposed to ask such a loaded question. (I think I know how the Pharisaes must have felt when they asked questions on the Law.)

As I peeked out to have a look, I saw that maybe it's safe to come out.

Little Toe, I really liked your song. Just wish I could hear the tune; it would be even better. We here, in Canada, are a bilingual country, so maybe we should sing the first verse in English, and the second verse in French. (But if we're in Quebec, we should switch the order of presentation.)

Gee, Terry. Sounds like you have written off 5,000 years of human history, and the only thing left worth considering is the day and age we are living in. Sure hate to think that future generations are going to think about us in the same way. Maybe there's something to that, because by 10,000 A.D. the human race ought to be in outer space exploring other planets and galaxies, and they will say "Planet Earth? Wasn't that some Galactic Legend from centuries ago that claims our predecessors came from that distant planet in that far corner of of some Galaxy the inhabitants called the Milky Way? Well, of course, that's all just speculation now, because all the records got wiped out when an asteroid struck the planet and the whole food supply got wiped out, and they all died out. Pity! Wonder if there's anything to that story!........." Anyway, Terry, why don't we just end it all now, and put ourselves out of our misery? The futility of life as per your platform makes it all so pointless. "Life's a bitch, and then you die!" "Love is an illusion." "Drugs are for people who can't handle reality." So why even care about human decency, love, right and wrong, and the beauty of nature. Ethics is just a waste of time, being hypnotized by another "Urban Legend" or two...It should be law of the jungle; might is right; lie, plunder and steal against our fellow man; if it feels good, do it- and all that narcissistic, self-absorbed "Truth". Isn't there something kind of sickening and disgusting about this alternative???

John Doe, interesting that the Bible was invented with "ambiguity" as part of it's design. God must be laughing at the lot of us. He made this giant cryptogram, and then sat back to watch us mere mortals try to solve it.

Rocketman, that's an interesting theory. If what you say is true, then why didn't God just make a book about all the Love themes, and leave all that other obfuscation out of it? Especially since at stake is our very Salvation. Why did God make it so complicated. As for the Scholars, of course they are going to agree on Love, because it's in our natures as homo saps, and it's an issue like Motherhood and Apple Pie. Who would be against that, or want to argue with it?

Narkissos, I'm scratching my head on that one. Please explain how the Tower of Babel is (anti)climactic to the Torah's introduction. Are you suggesting that the story of the confusion of tongues was perhaps anit-climactic to the Torah, which was already confusing enough? Please elaborate.

Interesting discussion.

Rod P.

Narkissos

Hi Rod,

On the general topic, I think John Doe captured very well the characteristics of religious speech and writing: except I don't find it so "sickening," after all ambiguity is the charm (another ambiguous word) of religion. Make religious speech plain (as JWs do to a certain extent) and you end up with prosaic and shallow "doctrine," devoid of "mystery," "spirituality" and "depth".

As to the Tower of Babel, I just remarked that this is the last of the Genesis "primeval stories," setting up the stage background and props for the patriarchal saga. As the last item of reality language, or rather linguistic and cultural diversity, is introduced as a punishment from Yhwh for human hubris. Univocity (one language, one set of words) which could have reached the heavens is forever barred. Here starts the endless drift of meanings which will never stop. All the words which follow (the Torah itself) will be words of one language and one culture among many, subject to translation and interpretation, and subsequent confusion. The Bible itself will be a book of at least three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek). And the contradictory explanations of the rabbis (which all are words of the living God as the Talmud has it) show that ambiguity is ultimately unsuperable.

LittleToe

Rod:
It's real easy, you just sing the title and alternate between Spanish, French and English, until it reaches a climax 3mins 23seconds later. Of course you can always put it on repeat, coz it's such an appealing song, you never get bored of it

The veritable trinity of languages allows for global diversity, and directly maps onto the three ancient lingua, that Didier refers to.

It can be played on a variety of instruments, too, including the fiddle, spoons, and dusty tome.

Truly a timeless song, revitalised for the modern age.

zen nudist

Books are mirrors of the soul.... no monkey looking in will see a god looking back -- Robert A Wilson.

words are symbolic triggers of meaning that exist in the minds of authors and readers, not in the words themselves.

if you try to find the definition of a word and the definitions of those definitions, you will end up back at the original word

eventually proving that no meaning exists in the word itself, but only in the expeirences such words trigger in you.

so like any other set of words, the expeirences of the reader will only match those of the author if they have lived the same things, which is not very likely over 2000+ years of distance.... the only reason we can read at all is because as humans we automatically share a tremendous amount of physical bodily expeirences in common...and because the earth is not that varied from one place to another, we have that too.

but culture, religion and traditions vary a great deal and when rituals are divorced from the words the words can take flight which is basically why there are thousands of protestant churchs but few orthodox.

LittleToe

Zen:

so like any other set of words, the expeirences of the reader will only match those of the author if they have lived the same things, which is not very likely over 2000+ years of distance....

So you've never seen a sheep, a war, or pissed against a wall?

Elsewhere

The King James Bible has 789,616 words in it. In the US alone there are about 1,500 Christian Sects (even more around the world).

This means that for every 526 words in the bible, one US Christian Sect disagrees with something taught by another US Christian Sect.

If you ask me, I'd say this is a sign that the bible contains almost nothing that is of a "solid" nature. Nearly all of it is purely subjective.

LittleToe

Elsewhere:That's an amazing statistic.
Have you worked out how many of those sects believe exactly the same darned thing???

Elsewhere

Have you worked out how many of those sects believe exactly the same darned thing???

Interesting thought!

I wonder how many out there who consider each other to be "apostate" are acutally "brothers".

zen nudist

So you've never seen a sheep, a war, or pissed against a wall?

do you have ADD? did you just ignore everything I said about how much we have in common?

LittleToe

Zen:
Ya know, if you're gonna sling the insults around, my hotheaded wee friend, I canny be bothered discussing it with you. Can you not see that I commented on the part in quotes, alone, or is your reading comprehension so very poor?

You took a potshot at our understanding of a 2000+ year old document. I made it plain that some things have changed very little, in that time.

Does the Bible interpret itself, or a fiddle you can play any tune with?

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