Jer. 29:10 -- Dr. Ernst Jenni replies to Leolaia and Scholar

by Alleymom 76 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    In the Gentile Times Reconsidered, Carl Olof Jonsson has a section on Jeremiah 29:10 and the question of whether the Hebrew text should be translated "seventy years FOR Babylon" or "seventy years AT Babylon."

    (See pp. 211- 215 in the third and fourth editions of GTR and pp. 378-379 in the fourth edition.)

    Jonsson cites Dr. Ernst Jenni, a Biblical Hebrew scholar who is considered to be the leading expert on Hebrew prepositions.

    Leolaia and Scholar wrote to Dr. Jenni to ask him to clarify his position on the meaning of the preposition "lamed" in Jeremiah 29:10. Leolaia has just posted copies of the letters she and Scholar wrote to Dr. Jenni, along with his response.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/87714/1516366/post.ashx#1516366

    (I would suggest that substantive responses be posted in the original thread. I've started this thread with a new subject header merely to direct attention to the original discussion.)

    Marjorie

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom

    Just a quick note that will serve as a "btt" ----

    My husband read through all of Dr. Jenni's book on the Hebrew preposition "beth" a few years ago. Jim was *extremely impressed that Dr. Jenni, who is widely renowned as a Hebrew linguist and who is undoubtedly the greatest living authority on Hebrew prepositions, would take the time to answer questions on this.

    I realize that most of you don't know who this man is, but Jim was amazed. I get the impression that Jim thinks this is on the order of someone like Einstein responding to a simple physics question from a non-specialist.

    Marjorie

  • Quotes
    Quotes

    Thanks for the cross-reference thread, AM.

    It appears that, as of this writing, Scholar (who is usually so verbose) has curtly implied that his query has been reported without his permission (or something to that effect).

    It takes a big man to admit he's wrong. Is Scholar big enough?

  • scholar
    scholar

    Quotes

    I do not believe I am wrong nor do I believe that the NWT is incorrect in rendering the 'le' as 'at' in Jer. 29:10. Jenni did not deal with the specifics of my question and has only given a linguistic theory to support his opinion. The facts are that Lexicography allows for a locative meaning and so does the textual tradition beginning with the LXX. Also, the context of the specific chapter and the book of Jeremiah supports a locative interpretation.

    scholar JW

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Poor scholar-character.

    Just so predictable.

  • toreador
    toreador

    Scholar,

    Are you getting things finally figured out yet?

    Tor

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Jenni did not deal with the specifics of my question and has only given a linguistic theory to support his opinion.

    False. He cited an empirical observation to support his analysis, to wit: "Lamed has in classical Hebrew some 360 occurrences of general orientations radiating from the subject ("nach oben" / "nach unten" etc., but not connected with free localities like towns or countries), and all of them in directional sense ("wohin?", to where?) and never purely static-local ("wo?", where?)." Jenni's volume cites the specific examples. This directly, unequivocably answers the central question you posed him: "Therefore, from all of your published comments are you saying that it is highly improbable if not impossible, for 'le' has the local or spatial sense in Jer. 29:10 for this is what is being claimed as your position in agreement with Modern Hebrew scholars?". How could you possibly say that Jenni did not deal with the specifics of your question? In fact, he went on to mention other matters you brought up, such as the rendering in the Vulgate and the KJV.

    The facts are that Lexicography allows for a locative meaning and so does the textual tradition beginning with the LXX.

    (1) This canard has been addressed time and again in the other thread; I don't know how many times that Narkissos and I told you that the semantic value of lamed depends greatly on the kind of grammatical construction it occurs in. Picking a favorite reading merely on the basis of what "lexicography permits" irrespective of construction is like saying the phrase "running up a bill" (e.g. Tom ran up a huge restaurant bill") must refer to someone physically running upward on a duck's bill, since each word technically permits such a reading. You've got to take into account the construction (e.g. UP is a particle, not a full preposition, when following RUN and has BILL as object). In his response to Jonsson, Jenni said pretty much the same thing regarding lamed ("it can be understood as local or local-directional only in certain adverbial expressions"). In his response to you, he clarified this point again.

    (2) Your reference to the "textual tradition beginning with the LXX" again reveals your misperceptions of the matter. The LXX renders the Hebrew l-bbl with dative case. Do you even know what dative case marks?

    Dative of Indirect Object ("to, for"): Seventy years to Babylon, Seventy years for Babylon
    Dative of Interest ("for the benefit of"): Seventy years for the benefit of Babylon
    Dative of Reference ("with respect to"): Seventy years with respect to Babylon, Seventy years pertaining to Babylon
    Dative of Sphere ("in the sphere of"): Seventy years in the sphere of Babylon, Seventy years under the purview of Babylon
    Dative of Association ("associated with"): Seventy years associated with Babylon
    Dative of Cause ("because of"): Seventy years because of Babylon

    None of these are a simple local; only a remote locative (e.g. Dative of Sphere) is possible, and most likely we are dealing with a pure dative rather than the more specialized (e.g. context-dependent) local or instrumental dative. The dative case clearly supports Jenni, Jonsson, and the majority of translations....definitely not the NWT.

    Also, the context of the specific chapter and the book of Jeremiah supports a locative interpretation.

    This has been refuted extensively in the other thread; for instance, your citation of other ch. 29 passages of "in Babylon" in English translation is linguistically silly and is actually evidence against your position (e.g. that lamed is not used to indicate these locatives).

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    The wt preferrs running up duck's bills, so scholar follows right along. Most of the world in general has more useful things to do. I wonder how ducks feel about this wt tendency?

    S

  • z
    z

    כה אמר יהוה כי לפי מלאת לבבל שבעים שנה אפקד אתכם והקמתי עלכים את דברי הטוב להשיב אתכם אל

    המקום הזה

    Jeremiah 29:10

    Leolaia you are so right kudus to you BRAVO

    Hebrew is my languish and you Leo you have great knowledge of the Bible keep it up

    Z

  • scholar
    scholar

    toreador

    Not quite yet. I am rather a bit slow but from where I am looking it is not looking too good for the aposates, Jonsson hypothesis and Jenni. I smell a rat and I think I have found the culprit thanks to Jenni and Jack Lundbom.

    scholar JW

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