Jer. 29:10 -- Dr. Ernst Jenni replies to Leolaia and Scholar

by Alleymom 76 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here are more examples Jenni cites with ml' and other duration verbs (e.g. rbh, 'rd) of the construction represented by Jeremiah 29:10. These are significant because they all use lamed in the same way as 29:10 (which I have added at the end). Note that like the examples in my last post, these all express the entity that is allotted the TIME UNIT or experiences it:

    Proverbs 4:10: "Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings, and the years of your life will be many". [Jenni gives the formula rbh "viel sein (Jahre)"; these are YEARS pertaining to ONE'S LIFE]
    Genesis 26:8: "And it came to pass, when his days had been prolonged, Abimelech king of the Philistines looked through the window". [Jenni gives the formula 'rd "lang sein (Tage)"; this is a prolonging of DAYS pertaining to HIM]
    Genesis 50:3: "And forty days were fulfilled for him; for this is how they fulfilled the days for those being embalmed". [Jenni gives the formula ml' "voll werden (Tage/Jahr[e])"; this is a fulfilling of 40 DAYS pertaining to HIM/THOSE EMBALMED]
    Leviticus 25:30: "And if it is not redeemed until an entire year is fulfilled for it, the house in the walled city shall belong permanently to the buyer". [Jenni gives the same formula as above; this is a fulfilling of an ENTIRE YEAR pertaining to THE HOUSE]
    Jeremiah 29:10: "When seventy years are fulfilled for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place". [Jenni gives the same formula as above; this is a fulfilling of SEVENTY YEARS pertaining to BABYLON]
  • AlanF
    AlanF

    One point that I've emphasized repeatedly in various threads on this topic, over the at least four years during which scholar pretendus has lamely been trying to defend the indefensible, is that the Watchtower Society's translation of Jeremiah 29:10 is absolutely contradicted by its claim that the 70 years were a period of complete desolation of Judah, from about October 1, 607 B.C. to October 1, 537 B.C. I've pointed this out to scholar pretendus many, many times, and as usual with arguments he cannot refute, he simply ignores the problem.

    The Watchtower Society has stated clearly in its publications going back to C. T. Russell that the key point to understand about the 70 years mentioned in Jeremiah, 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles is that it was a period of complete desolation of the land of Judah, a period in which neither man nor domestic animal inhabited the land. They claim that it was precisely 70 years, from about October 1, 607 B.C. (shortly after Gedaliah was assassinated, the remaining Jews fled to Egypt, and then the land was completely abandoned) to about October 1, 537 B.C. (when the Jews became settled back in their cities).

    The Society has not explicitly claimed that this 70-year period was the time of exile of the Jews at Babylon, but has sometimes glossed over the point by implication. Indeed, the Society has directly admitted that the travel time between Jerusalem and Babylon was about four months for a caravan comprised of men, women, children and their possessions. So, if captives were taken to Babylon as early as the first capture of Jerusalem around the beginning of August (586, 587, 607; take your pick), they would have arrived in Babylon around the beginning of the following December. And the repatriated Jews who arrived in Judah by October would have left Babylon no later than the beginning of June. Therefore, the time of the captivity of the Jews at Babylon was at most 69 years and 6 months, according to the Watchtower Society's own reasoning. Therefore, if the 70 years referred to a period of complete desolation of Judah, the Jews cannot have been at Babylon for a period of 70 years. They would have been at Babylon for at most 69 years and 6 months. Therefore, Jeremiah 29:10 cannot be a reference to 70 years at Babylon, since there was no such period.

    This proves that, according to the Society's own basic doctrine, the locative sense for le is contextually impossible at Jeremiah 29:10! And of course, it also proves that l-bbl means "for Babylon".

    The fact that the Society's overall arguments are self-contradictory means no more here than the fact that many of its arguments in support of other doctrines are self-contradictory or contradictory to fact. All it means is that Watchtower pseudo-scholars are too stupid or delusional to recognize or admit of such contradictions.

    Scholar pretendus' admission that he "goofed in claiming that meloth in Leviticus 25:30 is not an infinitive" is diagnostic of all that is wrong in the scholarship of Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole. Like scholar pretendus in this instance, JWs don't base their claims on facts or real scholarship, but on Watchtower tradition. C. T. Russell adopted N. H. Barbour's poor scholarship that resulted in a large body of claims resulting in the notion that "the Gentile times would end in 1914", along with a host of other bad claims, including the necessity of retaining in the NWT the wrong KJV rendering of Jer. 29:10. Once this set of claims became tradition, it could not be altered without the collapse of the entire house of cards. And this realization is behind the stubbornness of JWs like scholar pretendus -- they know that even the tiniest wedge will collapse the house of cards that comprises much of JW doctrine.

    I know that some people who have lately contributed the most to this series of threads have been bothered by my acerbic comments towards scholar pretendus. I think that now you know why I do this. It's not possible for an honest person to deal with someone as thoroughly dishonest as a JW-defender like scholar pretendus without eventually becoming indignant and expressing it. My outrage is not so much at the specifics, such as the dry, academic topics being discussed here (I actually find this moron's antics amusing), but at the destructive results of such unchristian, braindead shenanigans -- results that include the disfellowshipping and shunning of honest-hearted people. It's my opinion that only by dealing forthrightly and forcefully with such disgusting and deliberate dishonesty can such braindead people be jarred to their senses.

    AlanF

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Alan,

    I understand your style, to some degree and it has always come friendly to me, perhaps with a tinge of indignation but never much. And thanks for all your individual style, as well part of the collective

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    AlanF....Not only that, but the wording in Jeremiah 29:10 itself rules out the notion that the verse is locating the exiles "at Babylon". As I pointed out in both threads, the locative indicates the spatial orientation of a stated ENTITY in its environment. The examples of lamed as a spatial locative that are cited by Furuli (p. 86) thus mention the entity that is being located spatially: "each man at the entrance of his tent" (Numbers 11:10), "all the nations will gather in Jerusalem" (Jeremiah 3:17), "the king of Babylon had left a remnant in Judah" (Jeremiah 40:11). The whole purpose of the locative is to orientate some entity within its spatial context; otherwise "at Babylon" wouldn't mean anything if we didn't know what was at Babylon. If Jeremiah 29:10 involves a static locative, then the entity being located "at Babylon" cannot be the exiles because they are not mentioned in the clause (the antecedent would have to be all the way back in v. 4, "all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon"). The locative would instead involve one of the two possible entities mentioned in the clause itself: (1) the "seventy years" (the entity that is being FULFILLED) or (2) the event of "fulfilling the seventy years". It appears that pseudo-scholar is willing to accept either of these two possibilities, for he said in post #544 that "this event or durative was simply located at Babylon as shown by the preposition 'le' ".

    The first possibility is exceedingly problematic, for it would locate an abstract TIME UNIT in spatial terms. Had the shb'ym shnh "seventy years" included the possessive pronoun shlkm "your", as "your seventy years" (or with a pronominal suffix: shb'ym shnwtykm "your seventy years") then these would clearly be exile years experienced by the entity designated by shlkm or suffix. The text however lacks any such pronoun and thus these are a duration of 70 years that are not explicitly allotted to the exiles. As my last two posts discussed, the wording of the passage instead strongly favors Babylon as the entity that was allotted the 70 years (as the lamed indicates a quasi-possessive relation, "70 years belonging to Babylon", "70 years pertaining to Babylon"). Moreover, in Hebrew TIME UNITS are usually located temporally into a temporal context, rather than a spatial one: cf. "You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to Yahweh for seven days (shb't ymym) in a year (b-shnh)" (Leviticus 23:41; note the preposition be, which is the real locative in Hebrew).

    The second possibility, that it is the event of fulfilling the 70 years that is being located "at Babylon", of course destroys any notion that the DURATION of the 70 years is spent "at Babylon", only the event of their completion is what occurs "at Babylon". Thus, even insisting on a static locative fails to support the Society's notion of a 70-year exile "at Babylon", only that Babylon was the location of the ending of the 70-year period. If v. 4 is to be employed to buttress the interpretation of the 70 years as an exile "at Babylon" (the terminus a quo being the "carrying into exile" of people "to Babylon"), this would necessarily require a starting point of the 70 years long before 587/6 BC, as Alleymom has repeatedly pointed out, since those in exile addressed in the letter are those exiled in 597 BC (cf. v. 2).

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Excellent points, Leolaia, which will as usual be wasted on the fool we're dealing with.

    Another telling fact about this business of Jer. 29:10 is that the Society has never -- not even once -- even alluded to there being a possible problem with the NWT's rendering of l-bbl. The most they've done is present the translation as a fait accompli (cf. the appendix to ch. 14 in "Let Your Kingdom Come") and then let their ignorant apologists try to sort it out. This is typical of the Society's leaders -- "it's true because we, as God's spokesmen, say so!"

    These people are so blindingly, self-delusionally stupid that they refuse to see that they can't have it both ways. If the claim that the 70 years ended with the end of Judah's desolation is true, then the NWT's rendering of Jer. 29:10 as at Babylon is flat-out wrong. If the NWT's rendering of Jer. 29:10 is right, then the doctrine that the 70 years ended with the repopulation of Judah is flat-out wrong because the 70 years must have ended at Babylon. Scholar pretendus, like Rolf Furuli, knows these facts, but because these pseudo-scholars know that there is no reconciliation except to admit that modern chronology is correct, they choose to ignore them.

    What I find odd indeed is that these self-appointed apologists don't seem to realize that their complete lack of success in getting the Society to back them up in their apologetics proves that the Society's most internally-respected "scholars" don't go along with their nonsense. In fact, I've gotten the impression that Bethel Writing Dept. staffers generally consider them crackpots. And rightly so!

    AlanF

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alleymom

    I will compare the two infinitives of Leviticus 25:30 and Jeremiah 29:10 to see if the Hebrew form is identical even though these form are infinitive constructs. I do not have a parsing guide but a interlinear and those parsing guides that I checked some weeks ago did not this form shown. Nevertheless, the Nwt transaltes both infinitives differently and no one has explained why this so or is even interested in the fact that the NWT says 'the fulfilling of'. I believe that this subtle nuance of the infinitive may have a bearing on the exegesis of this passage. Interestingly, the NWT because of the fact that it is a literal translation performs a vital linguistic and exegetical service to Hebrew scholars and for this reason was used by the Hebrew scholar Benjamin Kedar in his linguistic work.

    Your personal translation of Jeremiah 29:10 is important becsause you read and understand Hebrew and you do not have to be a scholar to do this. The matter at hand should be rather simple because a little preposition is involve and you simply have to carry that little meaning into English. I have checked many commentaries on this passage and not one commentator has raised the matter of any exegetical difficulty. So , it should be a straight forward transaltion but you to be either incapable or unwilling to do this. I suspect with all the linguistics posted on this subject and Jenni's opinions that this is a very complex linguistic matter and that the NWT is fully correct.

    I am more puzzled why my critics do not feel inclined to have read Jenni's original article before engaging in complex linguistics based on Jenni's later work and by the fact that no interest in Jonsson's original letter to Jenni because Jonsson only partially uses Jenni's answer. I suspect by Jenni's remarks that he is biased against Jehovah Witness becuase of the remark made in that letter. I do not believe that if I wrote to Jonsson he would oblige me with his inquiry.

    If you truly believe that the seventy years began at the time of the first exile which would be 597 according to current thinking then you would be alone in this view. Jonsson and most other scholars begin the seventy years much earlier. I conclude then that your interpretation is not not so plain or clear so your exegesis is faulty.

    scholar JW

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Just as an aside, there is an interesting interpretation of Jeremiah's "70 years" attributed to the false prophet Hananiah in the Jerusalem Talmud (Sanhedrin 11:5). This tradition, which claimed that Hananiah plagiarized Jeremiah's prophecies, ingeniously accepts the oracle of the 70 years but puts a novel spin on it. Instead of starting the duration with the exile of Jehoiakim in 597 BC or with Jeremiah's declaration in 605 BC (cf. Jeremiah 25:1, 11), Hananiah starts the 70 years with the exile of the much earlier king Manasseh. This employs the otherwise unknown exile mentioned in 2 Chronicles 33:11: "Then Yahweh sent the generals of the king of Assyria against them, who captured Manasseh with hooks, put him in chains and led him away to Babylon". Of course, 2 Chronicles has a short-lived exile for Manasseh, but for Hananiah it was only the first of a succession of forced exiles and vassalry that the nation was to endure until the end of the 70 years. Hananiah calculated a lifespan for Manasseh of 55 years (cf. 2 Chronicles 33:1), and subtracted from the time of Manasseh's exile 20 years (which were of blessing, since Manasseh repented from his sin) + 2 years for Amon + 31 years for Josiah + 2 years for Zedekiah = 55 years corresponding to Manasseh's life. The addition of 15 additional years for Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim and Jehoiachin would amount to 70 years that would end two years into Zedekiah's reign. That is why Hananiah said "at the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah" that "only two more years" were left before the end of the exile (cf. Jeremiah 28:1-3). It seems the calculations of the rabbis were a few years off, as the three kings ruled a total of 3 months + 11 years + 3 months, or 11 1/2 years. This exegetical tradition made Hananiah start the 70 years way too early, expecting an end similarly too early.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The examples of lamed as a spatial locative that are cited by Furuli (p. 86) thus mention the entity that is being located spatially: "each man at the entrance of his tent" (Numbers 11:10), "all the nations will gather in Jerusalem" (Jeremiah 3:17), "the king of Babylon had left a remnant in Judah" (Jeremiah 40:11).

    I have not read Furuli's presentation, but I'd like to point out that none of the above examples implies a static locative for a free use of the preposition le.

    Numbers 11:10 uses the stereotyped phrase le-petach, "at (= in front of) the entrance" (Genesis 4:7; Exodus 26:36; 35:15; 36:37; 1 Kings 6:33; Proverbs 9:14; Ezekiel 40:40; Hosea 2:17?), which is a variant of the even more frequent 'el-petach (Exodus 29:4 etc.; note that usually the directional -- vs. static -- force of 'el is even clearer; cf. also `al-petach, Deuteronomy 31:15 etc.). In Numbers 11:10 it follows another use of le with an obvious distributive sense: the people was weeping le-mishpachothayw, "according to its families," 'ish le-petach 'ohalo, "each one (according to / at) the entrance of his tent". Sometimes "at the entrance" is expressed by the single petach, without preposition (Genesis 18:1; 19:11; Judges 18:16; a case of "accusative of local determination" according to Joüon § 126 h), probably by assimilation of the otherwise natural preposition be (Jeremiah 26:10; 43:9; Ezekiel 11:1) with the labial p- (just as be-bayith, "in the house," is often reduced to bayith). As the variety of equivalent fixed expressions with petach shows, it is nonsensical to draw a conclusion from one of them as to the independent meaning of one preposition with other words.

    Jeremiah 3:17, inasmuch as the MT is correct, clearly implies movement -- hence l-yrwshlm is not a static locative; cf. my earlier post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/90425/1522019/post.ashx#1522019

    Jeremiah 40:11, nathan melekh-bavel she'erith l-yhoudah, lit. "the king of Babylone gave a remnant to Judah", is not locative at all, for Judah is not a place but a nation. It is not about the "remnant in Judah" but the "remnant of Judah" (v. 15; 42:15,19; 43:5; 44:12,14,28 etc.). Cf. the following other uses of le introducing a personal complement with she'erith, "remnant":

    Genesis 45:7 lasum lakhem she'erith, to set a remnant for you.
    2 Samuel 14:7, lebilti swm le'ishi shem w-she'erith, without setting for my husband a name and a remnant.
    Jeremiah 11:23, she'erith lô' tihyeh lahem, no remnant will be for them.
    Jeremiah 44:7, lebilti hotir lakhem she'erith, without leaving for you a remnant.
    Jeremiah 50:26, 'al tehi lah she'erith, let no remnant be for her (Babylon, personified, just as in 29:10).
  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Here are some recent references to Jeremiah 29:10 in the literature:

    "A close inspection of Jer. 29:10 shows, however, that the seventy years refers to Babylonian domination and might be counted either from 612 BC (the fall of Ninevah) to 539 BC or from 605 BC to 539 BC. In either case it is approximately seventy years. In terms of a prophetic vision it is remarkably exact" (F. Charles Fensham, The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1994)

    "Where in vv. 4-7 a relationship of identity between Babylon and Judah is represented, what is represented in vv. 10-14 is a relationship of difference. Like 25:12-14 MT and 27:7 MT, these verses point to an end of Babylonian domination. However whereas these two passages refer to a period of Babylonian subjugation which follows the seventy years of Babylonian dominance, 29:10-14 describes a different outcome. The end of Babylonian dominance is the occasion for a return to the land...What is of particular interest for the present study are the references in v. 10 to the end of Babylonian domination, and the promise of return to the land in v. 14. Vv. 10-14 are in the form of a proclamation of salvation. The unit begins with a reference in v. 10 to the seventy years of Babylon's domination in v. 10, an expression which has a metaphorical significance. The language is similar to that of 25:12 MT. Both verses have the infinitive construct of ml' ("to be full", "to be complete"), the phrase shby'ym shnh ("seventy years"), and the verb pqd ("to visit"). Where the meaning of pqd in 25:12 MT is negative, it has a positive meaning in 29:10" (John Hill, Friend or Foe? The Figure of Babylon in the Book of Jeremiah, Leiden: Brill, 1999).

    "The foreign nation that carries out Yahweh's doom shall not stay in power for ever. The period of seventy years is mentioned in Jer. xxix(xxxvi) 10, on which our text is obviously dependent and accordingly later. Jer. xxix 10 lpy ml't lbbl shb'ym shnh 'pqd 'tkm "as soon as seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you" may be taken to mean that the seventy years are the time of Babylon in power and after that period Yahweh will take care (pqd!) of his people and let them return from exile. The time was no doubt meant to have started as the letter was being written to the first deportees....Regardless of the question whether it was a genuine prophecy, Jer. xxix 10 seems to refer to the time Babylon is in power, i.e., from the year of Carchemish till the 530s B.C." (Anneli Aejmelaeus, "Jeremiah at the turning-point of history: The function of Jer. xxv 1-14 in the Book of Jeremiah," VT 2002:475-476).

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    LOL.

    Nevertheless, the Nwt transaltes both infinitives differently and no one has explained why this so or is even interested in the fact that the NWT says 'the fulfilling of'. I believe that this subtle nuance of the infinitive may have a bearing on the exegesis of this passage.

    As for translating le in the same construction, in one case by "for," in the other one by "at," it is very clear to me: in the latter case the NWTranslators had a definite agenda and wished to maintain the KJV which happened to be Russell's basis for 607/1914; in the former case they had no agenda and translated the text correctly.

    As to the difference between the verbal locution in Leviticus 25:30 NWT "has come to the full" and the substantivised participle in Jeremiah "the fulfilling of," it is certainly not due to any "subtle nuance of the infinitive," which is identical (as you have finally admitted). I guess in Jeremiah the NWTranslators obscurely felt the problem Leolaia highlighted, namely that something had to be/occur "at Babylon" (if "at Babylon" it should be for doctrinal / cultic reasons). A substantive form would appear to suit the agenda better -- even though it was pretty shortsighted, as you are realising now (whether you admit it or not).

    Again, this is an obvious example that the NWT is inconsistent -- and to be honest, every translation is to some extent, even without a doctrinal / cultic agenda. Take that from someone who has spent years struggling with consistency in Bible translation.

    The matter at hand should be rather simple because a little preposition is involve and you simply have to carry that little meaning into English. I have checked many commentaries on this passage and not one commentator has raised the matter of any exegetical difficulty.
    Indeed it is very simple and there is no exegetical difficulty -- except for those who want to uphold the NWT against all evidence.

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