Wife arranging for me to study with a brother! I need a plan!

by M.J. 48 Replies latest jw experiences

OldSoul

MJ: Or I could try and play "stump the chump" with my wife present, which carries its own risks and possible alienation of the wife.

I recommend this approach, but not with this objective. Stumping the chump is argumentative and will likely result in alienating your wife. Calm, reflective, logical inquisitiveness and respectful reminders of questions unanswered will do the job nicely and not alienate your wife.
In other words, hear the fellow out. Ask questions you know he can't answer, no matter how scientific he is, like "Why do Jehovah's Witnesses tie Luke 12:32 to John 10:16? Couldn't the other sheep be referring to the Gentiles?"
It isn't a scientific question. It is a theological question. And every JW is theologicless when it comes to answering it, all the way up to and including Ted effing Jarasczssczzzczs (or however he spells his name). It is obvious from the timing of the statement and Jesus anticipation of where things would go that he was referring to the Gentiles. Likewise, the context of Luke 12:32 makes clear that he was not comparing the little flock to a larger flock of sheep, he was comparing the little flock to the rest of the world, the "nations of the world" according to the NWT.
There are many more similar ones we could put you onto. Questioning theology doesn't require a lot of smarts, and you can point up how he evades answering in a joking way while maintaining a respectful camaraderie. Your wife will be amazed how many things there is no direct Scriptural explanation for.
The brother will likely say something along the lines of, "Well, that's pretty deep stuff. It would probably be better if we laid a groundwork first and then worked our way up to that." You could respond, "So, your saying there is a crystal clear Scriptural basis for that?" He will definitely say, "Yes." You could respond, "Well, why don't you just show it to me, whether I understand it or not. I'm sure my wife will understand what you show us. She wasn't able to answer when I asked her. That's why she invited you over here, to answer the questions she couldn't."
You will get more hedging and you will notice pronounced squirming and stalling. Then you will see a light go off. Prepare to be evaded again. Just politely ask, shortly into the different path of inquiry, "Now this does relate directly to why Luke 12:32 and John 10:16 are linked together, right? Because, I'm not seeing the connection at all." Look to your wife, "Do you understand how this ties into my question?"
Talk about calmly putting the screws to the poor chap!
Respectfully,
OldSoul
M.J.

Old Soul, this is good. I just lack confidence at this point! I don't know what to expect cause I've never discussed things with these people other than my wife and I've never even met this brother. But my first meeting with him will be just to get to know him and come up with a plan on how to proceed. Perhaps for this first meeting I will suggest certain topics I'd like clarification on. Then next meeting I'll show up with questions on that topic. the Little Flock/Other Sheep topic sounds like a good place to start.
Check_Your_Premises

With respect to all who have posted some great lines of argument, I must point out an immutable fact of human nature.
People mostly decide to believe what they want, and then use logic to justify it.
You could provide a letter signed by God that says, "The JW's are a bunch of screwjobs engaging in delusions of grandeur", It wouldn't matter.
The only time direct refutations of the dubs will have any positive effect on a dub is when they are already open to it (they ask you directly or they are already having doubts).
If they are not, it only serves to alienate you from said dub.
MJ already knows this, but some things bear repeating.
The point here is not to win an argument (no reward except momentary satisfaction), but to help his wife to walk away.
That goal is not served if he alienates her with an attack on her most cherished beliefs.
JT

one poster says:
"I think you should start the conversations at square 1. Set the ground rules"
########
while this sounds good, this is not how it works in the real jw/bible study world, the jw will set the rules, if too much resistance is offered, if this person is a sharp jw, he will apply the rules that all jw are taught
WE ARE LOOKING FOR HONESTED HEARTED ONES
if you persistently ask controversal, debating style qustions,, esp ones that as a NONJW YOU SHOULD NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT, like the UN, child molestatation, changes in dogma, etc these things to a good jw are flags that you have been reading APOSTATE MATERIAL
in fact if he is good he will point blank ask you where are you getting such question from, jw have operated for decades based on the fact that the avg householder KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THEM OR THEIR HISTORY
for you do show that you do know things about them , will red flag him to preceed with caution
but this is the most important point you neeed to consider, this person will be talking to your wife and it will be molding her veiw of you as a man, her husband and head of the family
if you respond negatively and that is what you will be doing by asking too many OFF THE WALL question from his standpoint, she will be told that you are not intereste, bad heart, no sincere, wrong motives, do you see where this is going, he will paint a picture of you as the bad guy
she will feel that you are being mislead by satan and she is living with an agent of satan himself
why do i say so, well based on the questions asked, he will know that you pose a threat to her spiritualy- the fact that she had to call him in to answer your questions, he now sees the type of questions and issues you are raising and they are ARE FAITH DESTROYING QUESTIONS AND ISSUE from the jw persepective so he will let her know she risk being SPIRITUALLY SHIPWRECKED IF she continues to subject herself to such doubt placing questions
as a former society man myself, this is the counsel i would give any sister whose husband, would go down the road you are going
it rarely take a good jw long to discern if you ARE MAKING PROGRESS ( accepting what the wt says) or not
you need to be careful, for it may blow up in your face
your wife will feel that you have humilated her in front of bro and sisters
the word around the hall will be
"sis jones had bro elders study with her husband but he was asking alot of apopstate questions"
so she could end up being ticked at you
so be careful, playing such games as you are considering can and do have long lasting and sometimes major impacts
i don't know the person she has has to study with you, problem is he could advise her to consider SEPARATING FROM YOU DUE TO SPIRITUAL ENDANGERMENT,
IT IS such ideas as this that jw are able to plant into the minds of their members
just be careful
OldSoul

People mostly decide to believe what they want, and then use logic to justify it.

Agreed. This is the overwhelming tendency, and everyone sacrifices logic for emotional comforts and crutches to some degree.
You could provide a letter signed by God that says, "The JW's are a bunch of screwjobs engaging in delusions of grandeur", It wouldn't matter.
Again, agreed. They would question the authenticity of the letter since it didn't arrive through God's channel. Thus, the need to first remove the FDS, as explained by the WTS, from the channel.
The only time direct refutations of the dubs will have any positive effect on a dub is when they are already open to it (they ask you directly or they are already having doubts).
I strongly agree. I have proven it through my wife. However, what I suggested to MJ is clearly indirect refutation. It is a way to respectfully get the dub to refute himself. And the person on the hotseat will not be MJ's wife. It will be an authority figure his wife trusts to be capable of answering his questions. When she sees a live drama unfold that demonstrates her trust is misplaced, she may start to think deeply again.
If they are not, it only serves to alienate you from said dub.
I agree, that is the effect of direct refutation. It forces them more deeply into their "security" environment, where they feel safe and are actually in the greatest danger of losing a sense of self.
That goal is not served if he alienates her with an attack on her most cherished beliefs.
Wholehearted agreement! He can be proved right and lose anyway. The approach most likely to succeed is the one that will allow his wife opportunities to think and intellectually challenge, and mildly encourage her to do so, without forcing her to do so. As a third-person witness to the discussions, she would be able to see all the unspoken cues the brother throws out through body language and would be able to form her own impressions of his reactions and statements without being threatened in the least. MJ wouldn't have to say a word.
The brother's goal would be to bring both closer to ~~Jehovah~~ the Governing Body. He won't be out to divide and conquer with a newly baptized one. They'll do cartwheels to bring a UBM in. That is a Circuit Assembly part waiting to happen!
Respectfully,
OldSoul
Sunspot

FAITH DESTROYING QUESTIONS

SPIRITUALLY SHIPWRECKED

How do you destroy someone's faith?
If someone has a belief system and it is questioned, how is that destroying it? Doesn't the WTS fully advocate the use of questions in its teachings???? This is so much doubletalk which means "do not question the WTS".
As for that spiritually shipwrecked garbage, again this boils down to do not question the WTS! Anyone having a knowledge of the deception and the tactics of the WTS and if this person asks questions that pinpoint this----WHOOPS---the WTS can't withstand this scrutiny and the JW is in jeopardy of losing faith in the WTS!!
Losing faith destroying faith, spiritually shipwrecked, spiritually bankrupt etc are all scare tactics used on JWs and JW studies to keep their lies intact and flourishing.
Leaving the WTS does not equal either destruction of true faith nor anything like it. In fact, in my case, I left the WTS and found God! (at long last) My "faith took a beating, but it recovered and a fresh, new understanding has replaced it. I now know what Jesus actually taught, and what he expects us to do and why.
The WTS doesn't have a clue---or they DO but choose to mislead his sheep. In my estimation they are truly the Antichrist!!!
They claim to be Christian but don't follow what Jesus actually taught and did!
They claim to be angels of (new) light, but haven't gotten one prohecy or "changable truth" right. Ever.
But they don't want to be questioned about these things.
Wonder why?
Annie
M.J.

Thanks, JT. What you're saying is something that I've been feeling as my gut-instinct. I'm thinking I should be like an objective newspaper reporter in my questioning. Not expressing judgement, just observing and probing for clarification on the story. Well it's set. We're meeting this coming friday, without the wife present.
As per some of the advice that JT gave I think I'll stay away from getting too much into chronology and the FDS doctrine, since I would really start opening a can of worms that says "Apostate" all over it. And I've learned from the best! I suppose I could still ask logical questions regarding this divine appointment though.
I will keep y'all updated as things develop and I really appreciate your input. Perhaps as the conversation gets underway, I can ask for more specific suggestions.
M.J.
bebu

MJ, weren't you the one who recommended Captives of a Concept to me? You might want to think about using that kind of tack; it seems it would possibly fit if you can (without talking 605 BCE) enquire into the WTS's 'proof' that it is "the FDS".
Just another thought. You have quite a lot of choices before you.
bebu
M.J.

Yeah, I think I've pretty much internalized C of a C's presentation against the FDS so I think whenever the discussion turns that way I could be prepared to discuss it. But studying the proclaimers book has potential that I haven't thought of. I even have that one. Good idea.

Wife arranging for me to study with a brother! I need a plan!

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