What's Your Opinion of Putting Spy Cameras On City Streets? (page 7)

Terry

what about the possible abuses by future presidential administrations who value the privacy rights of their citizens even less than the current administration?

We cannot afford to make the GOOD the enemy of the PERFECT.

What "is" is. What "might be" is not; that is why it MIGHT be. See the difference?

We live in the "is" of life and make our laws and live our lives within the actual context of what IS.

We cannot afford to trade an___actual___on the same market with a ___possible___because one is real and the other is not. That is actually the definition of gambling. You take money that you actually own and make it equivalent to money you do not own and hazard actual loss for what reason other than......................."possible" advantage (winning)?

Risk. That is the issue.

Take the abortion issue. It is a mirror to our privacy argument. The same elements apply.

A ____potential___human life is put on the same equivalent scale as an ___actual___human life and the discussion BEGINS as though there were a demonstrated equivalency!! There is none; it is illusory. An "actual" human life is is demonstrated through what it does and not what it "might" do. That is the flaw in all such arguments. Creating an equivalency where none exists leads to nonsensical thinking. It can be avoided be acknowledging there is no equivalency between:

what IS

and

what MIGHT be.

EvilForce

So then we should gather everyone up take their fingerprints, DNA samples, and put a radio tag on them. If you have nothing to hide why would you care? Also, get photographed so that in the camera database they will be able to identify perps. Isn't this the next logical step?

So have we abandoned the idea that cameras are ineffective budgetarily....we just want photos of people who commit crime so we can go get them?

Purps....I did not mean to come off as high handed with you so I hope I didn't offend. Perhaps my stunned disbelief at how easy and casually people are willing to give up control to a govt. entity of "camera cops" made it sound that way. For I am truly shocked (to put it mildly) at this.... I didn't realize how common this perception is. I assume the board to be a microchasm of society at large.

This reminds me of the "Trusted Traveler" program the Feds wanted to roll out right after 9/11. Whereby you submit to a background check and get "expedited" screening at US airports. I railed against that program then, for under the qualification Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma City bomber) would have qualified as a "Trusted Traveler".

Terry.... I will get back to your questions / issues later this evening as I have to run out the door.

Terry

Perhaps my stunned disbelief at how easy and casually people are willing to give up control to a govt. entity of "camera cops" made it sound that way. For I am truly shocked (to put it mildly) at this.... I didn't realize how common this perception is. I assume the board to be a microchasm of society at large.

Isn't the real target of your caution more precisely the POWER to invade our privacy rather than specifically the privacy issue itself?

One is the effect and the other is the cause.

Would it not be more effective to concentrate on the abuse of POWER than to discuss all the particulars that might be violated when power actually is abused?

T.

Tigerman

Yes people, like Elmer Fudd said at the end of the cartoon . . . " Dat . . .dat . . .dat all folks !"

I'm moving to Tahiti.

Terry

Yes people, like Elmer Fudd said at the end of the cartoon . . . " Dat . . .dat . . .dat all folks !"

Wouldn't that be Porky Pig?

Tigerman

Terry . . . Yep, you're right, it was Porky Pig .

Thegoodgirl

I didn't read all these posts, but I just started a job in a bad area and they have those "Cop Cams", huge obvious camera boxes with big flashing blue lights. They're great, except that the loitering group of men who shout derogatory comments at the women just moved down about two blocks, out of sight of the camera. Anyway, I must admit, I do feel a little safer when I walk directly under it.

prophecor

Evil Force: So Phophesor.... the camera only caught a grainy unidentifiable figure on camera. How does that help anyone?

The way it was designed was not so much to catch criminals but as a means of surveillance, this unfortunate crime that took place just happenned to catch the criminal in the act of commiting a murder. If this system of surveillance is ratched up so as to better be able to indentify individuals in the first place, it could be a useful tool to assit in identifying persons in the act of commiting crime. I'm not advocating the use of CCTV's exclusively, only as a means of enhancing tools that are already in existence, like more police on the beats, especially at night when a lot of crime probably goes unnoticed. Criminal activity is best done when there are the least amount of eyes available to watch what goes on.

In law enforcement, there exist the theory that most crimes occur during the waking hours, 12pm-12am, that may be true up to a point, however, I believe a significant criminal element exist in the wee hours of the morning, when most people are asleep. There exist the need of incorporating a wide range of deterents to offset criminal behaviour. The greater lighting at night, as I believed you mentioned is a great idea. The area that is lit up on Broad Street, along a 4-5 block stretch around Temple University Hospital, in a harsh section of North Philadelphia lends to a great degree of safety, or at least the illusion of it. I know I would rather take any ill intent I had of doing down a darker back street.

We as citizens, also, would do well by banding together to assist law enforcement, by being the eyes and ears of the police. There are many who participate in town watch committees and just sharing information with your neighbors can help to buffer a lot of the criminal element that may exist on your own block. CCTV's could be used as an additional means of deterring crime.

We will never be able to stop crime this side of heaven with CCTV's in effect, they however can be greatly instrumental in assisting law enforcement to help in reducing crime, helping to identify problem areas in your community, and bringing about a sense of security, desperately needed in a schizo-post 9-11 society.

tetrapod.sapien

:"Who exactly are________"they"?________"

________"they"_______are_______the_________government________

There cannot be a right to be anonymous when we go out in public."

speak for yourself. this is disturbing. sorry. but what you say is disturbing.

:"Second point?

The linking of public exposure with some vague inevitibility in our private property has to be DEMONSTRATED to have any place in this discussion."

well, perhaps at some point in the near future, you will have a DEMONSTRATION. perhaps not. i hope you don't.

:"Who gets a wire tap in our country right now? Is it persons whose observed activities create a hazard of a clear and present danger to society? YES."

certainly. and i guess that everyone who get's a tap deserves it because your government says so.

:"Why link that with a "violation" of privacy?"

because i don't trust your government?

:"Do we actually want people who create a clear and present danger to make their dangerous plans in secret with success?"

no.

:"How does an "innocent" citizen receive a wiretap or a hidden camera if they have NOT been observed to create a hazard?"

if we are going to communicate here, a definition of "innocent" is required. i would be interested in knowing who falls into your definition.

steve2

Why waste time putting spy cameras on city streets when there are innumerable public "bathrooms" crying out for them? To stem vandalism, of course.

What's Your Opinion of Putting Spy Cameras On City Streets?

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