The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom 303 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jonathan Drake

  The Quran adds nothing to the teaching of the bible. 

  It states that the bibles messages came through gods messengers before Muhammed and that they are valid messages from God. It does not contradict them. Rather, it condemns the teachings created from the bible that are not scriptural. Like Christ being God, or the trinity - these are not supported by the bible. So when a Christian reads the Quran and sees their Religion contradicted they say it's contradicting the bible. But as my posts have clearly shown with regard to Muslims and the Quran, just because a religion claims a book as its own doesn't mean they follow what it says. This is true of Muslims, clearly, and also of Christians. 

  The quran states it is a confirmation of previous messages and not a new message. So far I've found nothing extra in it that is a new teaching from the bible. Granted however, I'm only on my second read through.
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  Viviane

  JD, do you believe in the Bible? That is was inspired by God? If so, in what sense do you believe in the Bible? Literally? That it contains truth but not history? Good ideas? 

  I ask this because I am trying to figure out your point. Why are you defending the Quran and the Bible but not the Book of Mormon? On what grounds? What is your reasoning or basis for this?
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  Jonathan Drake

  I have a difficult time taking seriously the opinions and arguments of anyone who believes certain crappy books have been written by a super being possessing someone with a pen.
  

  Also as to this point, remember the bible was written largely after something happened. With few exceptions to some things written as prophecy (whole different discussion I'm sure) it's not a case of God posessing someone. The gospels were all written in the late first century over 30 or even 40 years after Christ died. The only books in the NT written in what comes close to real time are the letters. 

  This is also true of the Quran. The Quran was taught orally. It was not written down until, likely, about 30 years after Muhammed died. 
• 

  JWdaughter

  Terry, thanks. I am a fan of Reza-and I still love Cofty :)

  I think some of the commenters have kind of missed the point of the posted link, but hey, they think all believers are delusional, so there is a foundational lack of respect-and I get it. I can't get angry about it, because I know the world I live in, and I know how much animus there is to religion.

  I sent this to my mom(from the Youtube link) just for her to understand my ideas on it. I wish I expressed myself as well as Mr. Aslan.

  (putting on my armor)
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  Jonathan Drake

  @ viv

  i believe the bible is to be taken as it was written, letting it speak for itself. I also believe to understand its message you have to know the people and culture around its conception. I.e, JWs believe the GB is the faithful steward of Luke 12. This is not so, because the steward or house manager was a cultural reference, one that referred to the servant to whom the master gave the keys of his house. Thus, the steward was Peter (Matt 16:19)

  any attempt to take the bible in some other way than just what it says for itself is to interpret, hence twist it, into something it is not at all. amd this is what has been done with the bible for 1000s of years. 

  as far as the Quran goes, as I've said Ive only read it once so far. But I see no contradictions to the bible, only a great deal of emphasis on the goal of the Quran being not to replace or even give anything new, but to confirm. I've already studied the bible enough to know Jesus is not literally God and the trinity is not true, hence when I read it in the Quran all I see is fulfillment of the Qurans claim. By his time, Christians were teaching the trinity and the bible was shut up by the church and outlawed. Then Muhammed comes along teaching the truth about a book he couldn't even read (even if he had a copy he was illiterate) and correcting the teachings of said book - not replacing them. I find this very impressive, which is why I'm still reading it, trying to find any cotraditions or errors.

  the closest I've come so far is a verse that states when God created Adam the Angels bowed down to Adam. I found this strange and actually stopped reading the Quran. However, I later found in other research that the Christians of his day were reading a book that taught the Angels bowed to Adam because of Adam being gods image. So, this was not a contradiction, and really only makes sense. I read the rest of it. 

  Im actively TRYING to disprove the Quran, but so far I am unable. It teaches everything about the bible I already believe and provided direction for people living at that specific time dealing with specific challenges. 

  The Book of Mormon however, contradicts the bible many times. Hence I excuse it. It tries to establish its own truth. As the Quran and the bible both say, God does not change, his messages would never contradict each other. 
  
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  Simon

  You seem unsure of what "inspired" means. Is it the word of god? If so, how exactly does that work? Do you imagine god sat around desperately hoping that *someone* would write what he wanted said? Or did he put words on the page through them? If so, I think "possession" is an accurate description but of course, this is an area that religiots like to veer away from as it's uncomfortable having to talk about specifics that, well, show what an unbelievable and contradictory pile of twaddle it all is.

  Im actively TRYING to disprove the Quran, but so far I am unable. It teaches eberythi about the bible I already believe and provided direction for people living at that specific time dealing with specific challenges. 

  Sorry, but what BS. You believe it is the inspired word of god. You are not trying to disprove it AT ALL. You are preaching it's divine-ness.

  The Book of Mormon however, contradicts the bible many times. Hence I excuse it. It tries to establish its own truth. As the Quran and the bible both say, God does not change, his messages would never contradict each other.

  Ah, that's because you incorrectly view the bible as inspired. It isn't. Only the book of Mormon and Twilight are inspired and they don't contradict each other. I've tried to prove them wrong but since I totally believe that they are inspired I have been unable to do so.

  If you were at all honest with yourself you would not claim anything IS inspired, you would say "I chose to believe that this book is inspired". You are not being honest with yourself and we're not interested in being a platform for you to pronounce your blind beliefs to the world.
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  Viviane

  So, what, specifically, do you believe about the Bible? That it contains truth? Some truth, all truth? That's it's a collection of interesting stories? What specific truth did Mohammed teach about the Bible? Do you believe Adam literally existed and that angels literally exist and bowed to him?
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  Jonathan Drake

  @simon

  inspiration is explained as either 1 of 2 things:

  1: in the nt, spirit merely assisted the writers to remember things that already happened. No posession. 

  2. In the OT and in Revelation, Angels appeared telling the writer what to write. No posession. 

  So I do not understand your idea about posession, I dont know where it comes from but the bible doesn't agree, and nor does the Quran. 

  i should also clarify that I meant I'm trying to disprove it in my own studies, not here. Here I will defend what I have read of it so far as a can recall it as long as I have not disproved it. 
• 

  Simon

  spirit merely assisted the writers to remember things that already happened. No posession

  That sounds like possession to me - especially if the writers are writing things they could not possible have any knowledge, memory or experience of. How exactly does it work? How did they 'assist'? If they aren't possessing the writer then are they grabbing hold of the pen like a ouija board?

  So I do not understand your idea about posession, I dont know where it comes from but the bible doesn't agree, and nor does the Quran

  No, the believers of the bible and quran chose not to agree and also chose to avoid the word "possession" while fundamentally relying on the concept for their beliefs and to peddle their belief that it is inspired.

  Please, tell us more about how spirit creatures wrote books. Why can't they now send tweets or write facebook posts to clarify things?
• 

  Jonathan Drake

  So, what, specifically, do you believe about the Bible? That it contains truth? Some truth, all truth? That's it's a collection of interesting stories? What specific truth did Mohammed teach about the Bible? Do you believe Adam literally existed and that angels literally exist and bowed to him?
  

  I believe that dissecting the books and trying to argue they are untrue for any number of reasons both misses the point of the message and is almost always not factual anyway and merely shows a persons misunderstanding of it. 

  Thus, so far as I am able, I will defend the books by providing the proper context of what happened and any factual information I can. But I will not argue about whether something happened or not so far as our discoveries have no way of showing, because to do so misses the point entirely. 

  Thus, in answer to your question. I will say I believe Jesus was the messiah, that he willingly took this role, and that he died and was raised to heaven. Because I believe this i strive to live up to his example and direction to love, be tolerant, amd treat people as I wish to be treated whether I agree with their choices or not. I will not judge them or think badly of them, and will seek to make amends whenever I do since it will happen despite my best efforts. all this I will do because I do not miss the point of the message. I also believe that something bad will likely happen to those who have assumed the role of a messenger or Christ, as per Jesus stating it would. And that all religions following a man today are false. In the end, what I believe, is that people like you and I and others here who have renounced our religions because of their clear hypocrisies and lies will be saved, as well as all those who are in the religions honestly trying to find truth, as well as all those whomever else the  judge finds is a good and righteous person, regardless of any errors they may have made. 

  and I believe this because it is, in fact, what the bible says - and, so far, the Quran as well.