The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom 303 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Jonathan Drake

  nothing about this subject is obvious

  
  The quran advocates hitting a wife who lacks submission - this is obvious. ( you agreed that hitting your wife might be ok sometimes)

  The author of the book was a child rapist - this is obvious.

  The book condemns everybody who does not believe the pedophile prophet to an eternity of torture in hell - this is obvious.

  First of all, the wife slap has nothing to do with submission at all. 

  Secondly, prove everything you just said with a first hand account. If you can not prove, with a first hand account, what the proper interpretation of the book is or what events did or didn't happen, then you are using a second hand account and it is hearsay that proves nothing. 

  its just your interpretation, to use your own argument.

  we are arguing opinions, and it's a waste of time.
• 

  Viviane

  Because the only evidence EITHER side has is second hand hearsay. 

  We have the books. They advocate murder, rape, abortion, genocide, misogyny, slavery and theft. 

  You believe in the chief messenger and figure in that gushing, neverending bloodbath. Your own words in this thread confirm it. 

  Those are obvious, objective facts.
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  @Jonathan Drake - the Quranic verse that says 'I will cast terror into the disbelievers; therefore, strike at their necks and strike off the fingertips of them' is given different interpretations. Most imams interpret this verse in context - making any jihad for muslims internal. Extremist imams, and groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda, interpret this verse as a literal, open-ended command to kill disbelievers (in reality anybody outside their group).

  Surely, you have to admit that both interpretations are plausible.  
• 

  Viviane

  Helping people use rational thinking and evidence to avoid worshipping a moral monster that advocate genocide is never a waste of time.

  
  
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  Jonathan Drake

  Surely, you have to admit that both interpretations are plausible.  
  

  For sure, as I said on the previous page and once before, there is a serious communication issue existing if these interpretations can be reached. Modernizing the language in a way that more directly emphasizes the view intended and brings the book into a new more modern understanding is certainly necessary. But to ignore the fact that the issue is one of interpretation, and therefore first and foremost a problem with the individual who thinks these things are okay, throwing all the blame on the book completely, is just bonkers.

  rewrite the book and make it say the most peaceful directives of any holy book now or to come and people who want to cause chaos will find a new reason for its justification. I've been called naive several times in this thread, but I think THIS is naive, thinking the only reason these people do what they do is because of a book. Come on. 
• 

  Jonathan Drake

  We have the books. They advocate murder, rape, abortion, genocide, misogyny, slavery and theft. 
  

  Thats just your interpretation. You have no way of proving your interpretation is correct. 
• 

  myelaine

  dear JD...

  the angels don't know the gospel because they don't know the day or the hour? who do you bridge these two scriptures? 

  Once Jesus was born in the flesh the angels knew...gabriel announced to mary what was going to take place, angels were at the tomb, revelation has an angel preaching the everlasting gospel and all God's angels know that it is Jesus who is the "head of all principality and power"...up until Christ the prophets AND angels desired to look into what would be the outworking of God's plan...the scripture you quoted doesn't affirm that God's angels are unable (to this day) to look into the gospel. God's angels were able to understand the gospel at the time of Christ, like the apostles they knew the "mystery" because  it HAD BEEN revealed in Christ. Now, if the jinn or angels speaking in the koran (which came after the bible) didn't understand the gospel it's reasonable to conclude they are fallen angels in the same camp as those who, if they had known who Jesus was, wouldn't have crucified the Lord of Glory. colossians 2:10, 2:15

  love michelle <3
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  Jonathan Drake

  Once Jesus was born in the flesh the angels knew
  

  Thats really strange since it was Jesus in the flesh saying the Angels dont know. Lol
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  Jonathan Drake - no amount of 'modernising the language' can make this particular verse any clearer. Correct?

  So the question naturally arises: why would God write something, like the Bible, so muddled, confusing and open to interpretation?
• 

  Jonathan Drake

  Jonathan Drake - no amount of 'modernising the language' can make this particular verse any clearer. Correct?

  So the question naturally arises: why would God write something, like the Bible, so muddled, confusing and open to interpretation?

  It wasn't written in English. once it was written down it was in the common language of the day and the past events that surrounded it were fresh history. So for a good while the people had no problems, they read and new specifically what it was talking about and knew the language it was spoken in and later written in. Only after several generations went by did a problem arise, at a time when people no longer knew about the Meccans breaking the peace treatise and were easily convinced the Quran literally means, "kill them wherever you find them." Until now not only is the cultural context lost, but we have the issue of translating it. 

  the fault then would not be gods, or the books, but the loss of perspective. When I suggest modernization I mean add to the book the very necessary verses that make it clear what was going on AT THAT TIME, so as to reintroduce the perspective needed to see the meaning behind the words. If this was done, then the Quran could no longer be used as an excuse for these terrible things. The bible as well, add notes that make it clear the real inention- such as the tradition of the house steward. If this was done it'd be clear. 

  But again, the people wanting chaos would just find a new reason.