Watchtower Gives Up Explaining 607 BCE Date!

by VM44 239 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Jeffro

  Not at all. There is no way that the fifty years can fit into the context of seventy years. Scholars of Josephus have opined that the original reading was seventy rather fifty and this would harmonize with the seventy years not fifty years mentioned in the previous paragraph 19 of chapter One. In addition there is no chronological construct applicable for a fifty years but of course there is for the seventy year period. In short, the fifty year period is a nothing period.

  The fifty years ran from 587 to 537, from when the temple was destroyed to when it started to be rebuilt. It fits very logically with the facts. The Society's suggestion that the exile started in 607 is readily disproved from the bible. Isaiah 45:1, Jeremiah 25:11-12, Daniel 5:26-31 and Jeremiah 52:28,29 all invalidate the Society's model before even approaching the secular evidence.

  What you fail to realize that any chronology is constructed on the basis of methodology and interpretation and chronologies differ because of different methods and views. In other words, chronologies are deductive in nature, our chronology is event based whereas the populist are regnal based thus arriving at different conclusions.

  The Society's chronology is not event-based, it is dogma-based. It must provide a result of 1914, and so it twists the scriptures to achieve its goal. That is why no-one else agrees with it, because real scholars prefer facts to dogma, and no matter whether they rely on contemporary Babylonian chronology or Egyptian chronology, Ptolemy, Josephus, or any other source, they all end up twenty years different to the Society's incorrect interpretation.

  Celebrated Wt scholars adjusted their chronology with new and latest research and so have other scholars operating on similar lines. The book of Daniel is prophetic in outlook with a basis in history and this leads to much larger fulfillments of prophecy. Indeed, Daniel as a book was to be sealed up until the time of the end so it is no surprise that Daniel is about eschatology including the Gentile Times. It appears that you do not like Daniel and you have littel interest in its contents.

  The only adjustment the Society has made to its chronology was when they realised there was no year 0. You errorneously conclude from Daniel 12:9 that it is the entire book of Daniel that was "sealed", again with no valid basis. The "Gentile Times", as has been explained previously cannot have started prior to 70AD because of the use of the Greek word 'esomai' in the original text at Luke 21:24.
• 

  Jeffro

  Both quotations from Josephus support the interpretation of the seventy years a presented by celebrated WTscholars, namely that the seventy years was an interval beginning with Nebuchadnezzer's destroying the temple and depopulating Judah for seventy years in his 18 th year and the 11th year of the last Judean king, Zedekiah. Further, the is interval ended not at the Fall of Babylon in 539 but with the release of the exiles under Cyrus in 537. Josephus provides the secular evidence for our calculation of 607 from the establishment of that seventy years. Josephus is a withess for our defence of 6O7, Period!

  According to Jeremiah, there were a lot fewer people exiled in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year than in his 7th. So if the Society interprets the 70 years as being of exile rather than of nations serving Babylon's, why not start the exile from then? The Society's chronology is simply a dishonest dogma with the sole purpose of propping up the error-plagued 1914 doctrine. Why do you continue to ignore Jeremiah's indication of the significance of the 70 years?

  "6O7"? You are aware that O is a letter of the alphabet, not a number?
• 

  City Fan

  that the seventy years was an interval beginning with Nebuchadnezzer's destroying the temple and depopulating Judah for seventy years in his 18 th year

  I wonder where "celebrated Watchtower scholars" think the 745 Jews came from who were captured and exiled in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year if Judah was completely depopulated? (Jer 52:30) This would be 5 years into Scholar's fictional 70 year period of 'servitude-exile and desolation'.

  Jer 52: 28: This is the number of the people whom Nebuchadrez'zar carried away captive: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews;
  29: in the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrez'zar he carried away captive from Jerusalem eight hundred and thirty-two persons;
  30: in the twenty-third year of Nebuchadrez'zar, Nebu'zarad'an the captain of the guard carried away captive of the Jews seven hundred and forty-five persons; all the persons were four thousand and six hundred.

  CF.
• 

  Jeffro

  I wonder where "celebrated Watchtower scholars" think the 745 Jews came from who were captured and exiled in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year if Judah was completely depopulated? (Jer 52:30) This would be 5 years into ;Scholar's ;fictional 70 year period of 'servitude-exile and desolation'.

  Scholar will simply parrot the Society's speculation that these were Jews who had run off to other nations.
• 

  Hellrider

  Yeah, and Jeffro mentioned Jeremiah 52, I had forgotten about that one! This passage proves CLEARLY that the 70 years of desolation does NOT refer to the time between the destruction of the Temple, and the return of the exiles:

  Jeremiah 52, 27: So Judah was taken into exile away from its land. 52:28 Here is the official record of the number of people Nebuchadnezzar carried into exile: In the seventh year, 3,023 Jews; 52:29 in Nebuchadnezzar’s eighteenth year, 832 people from Jerusalem; 52:30 in Nebuchadnezzar’s twenty-third year, Nebuzaradan, captain of the royal guard, carried into exile 745 Jews. In all 4,600 people went into exile.

  Jeremiah shows clearly that the DESOLATION began almost immediately! In the seventh year, Nebuchadnezzar carried 3023 jews into exile! HOWEVER, the eigteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar (the year he destroyed the Temple), 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. And the dportations CONTINUE into Nebuchadnezzars 23rd year! Clearly, there were jews taken away from early in Nebuchadnezzars reign, and thru most of the period! STILL, both Daniel and Jeremiah refers to this as "seventy years of desolation", INCLUDING the years BEFORE the Temple was destroyed (Jeremiah 52,28)! '

  So Scholars and the WTS`s claims has been debunked both on Biblical and Secular ground.

  The apostates rides off in conquest!
• 

  scholar

  Hellrider

  Utter nonsense. The Bible clearly and unambiguously and as testified by Josephus that the seventy years was a period of exile-desolation-servitude. These elements together or in concert were not present in Neb';s 7th year but only in his 18th year because that is the only year that saw the temple, the city and the land destroyed. This year is calculated to be 607 because a count of 70 years from their return under Cyrus in 537 leads one to 607.

  scholar JW
• 

  Hellrider

  Sigh...You just don`t get it! I can understand that you would like to have "the final word" on this issue, but you are not arguing against us with logic, you are simply repeating yourself into oblivion. I am hesitate to repeat the logics from my previous posts, but I would just like to add a couple of things:Much of the disagreement is based on the understanding of the word "desolation". My wordbook, "Oxford advanced learners Dictionary", says:

  des-ol-ate adj 1) (of a place) deserted and miserable: a desolate industrial landscape. a desolate, windswept moorland area. 2) miserable and without friends; lonely and said: a desolate person, life, existence.

  des-ola-tion 1) desolating or being desolated. the desolation caused by war 2) misery; loneliness: her utter desolation when she heard the bad news.

  The biblical language is very poetic, and Daniel and Jeremiah are no exceptions. The meaning of "desolate" is meant both physical and spiritual, in the biblical passages. The word "desolate" does not, and have never, ever meant "completely emptied of people, and all buildings destroyed", as you seem to imply. Judah wouldn`t even had had to be emptied of people, for the land to be desolate, it could have been a "spiritual desolation", as this is another meaning of the word. However, the land was emptied of people, but it wasn`t emptied and destroyed in 607, and it wasn`t emptied in 587. Whether Nebs 18th year was in 607 or 587, Jeremiah says that the deportations continued for years after his 18th year! If you insist that "desolation" means "utter destruction and no people" (although neither the wordbook nor any writer or linguist in the world would agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), how do you explain that the deportations continued after the destruction of the Temple?

  Also, I would like to add that it is not only the academics of the world that agrees that the Temple was destroyed in 587, and that Nebuchadnezzars 18th and Zedekiahs 11th year was this year, this is also agreed upon by Jewish (religious and non-religious) communities. This is a part of their history. I`m going to try to place a web-page in here, let`s see if I am succesful...
• 

  Jeffro

  Utter nonsense. The Bible clearly and unambiguously and as testified by Josephus that the seventy years was a period of exile-desolation-servitude. These elements together or in concert were not present in Neb';s 7th year but only in his 18th year because that is the only year that saw the temple, the city and the land destroyed. This year is calculated to be 607 because a count of 70 years from their return under Cyrus in 537 leads one to 607.

  (Perhaps you meant to have a colon rather than a fullstop after the words "Utter nonsense" just to let us know what was about to follow.)

  Scholar, the Society's interpretation, regardless of how many times you repeat it, is simply disproved by the bible. The fact is that most of the exiles were in Babylon for longer than 70 years, and some were there for less than 70 years. The actual number exiled in 587 (your 607) was relatively insignificant and doesn't gel with your 'exile-desolation-servitude' thing.

  Of course this is just one more problem with the Society's model among a long list of problems.
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  Low-Key Lysmith

  Does this remind anyone of "7 ways to Kevin Bacon"?
• 

  Rabbit

  Scholar...I asked you again and again. Why have you not answered ? Mine is not arguing about meaningless (to me) dates. My question is simply about the educational qualifications of the writers of the Watchtower. This is a fair question. It was certainly asked about Josephus..."why did he qualify as a writer/historian to be taken seriously ?"

  Do you not know the answer ?

  Is the answer somehow embarrassing to you...or the WTS ?

  Un-named 'secret' people that don't allow themselves to be questioned -- even about their education are simply dishonest. Especially because they just happen to expect their followers to give "whole-souled devotion" to this cause. Our very lives are expected to be given up...on their 'say-so.'

  So, in a little bigger print, I ask you again..."who are these "celebrated WT scholars" ? What are their qualifications ? Prove they exist, I dare you...

  Rabbit (of the very patient class)