What would you have done?

by defd 90 Replies latest jw friends

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  defd

  11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God’s Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God’s friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually "be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God."—Romans 8:21

  Kwin we as the other sheep who are going to live on EARTH are not in the NEW COVENANT. I see that they are talking about the NEW COVENANT. If you could look up in the insight books under mediator and see what it says. I would but I donot have them handy right now.
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  kwintestal

  *** it-2 pp. 362-363 Mediator ***

  Those

  for Whom Christ Is Mediator. The apostle Paul declares that there is "one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called "might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance" (Heb 9:15); he assists, not the angels, but "Abraham’s seed." (Heb 2:16) He assists those who are to be brought into the new covenant to be ‘adopted’ into Jehovah’s household of spiritual sons; these eventually will be in heaven as Christ’s brothers, becoming a part with him of the seed of Abraham. (Ro 8:15-17, 23-25; Ga 3:29) He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance. (2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14) The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000.

  Inauguration

  of the New Covenant. After Jesus died and was resurrected, he entered into heaven to appear before the person of God to present his offering, the benefits of which go first to those taken into the new covenant. (Heb 9:24) Here he acted both as High Priest and Mediator. In harmony with the pattern followed at the inauguration of the Law covenant, Jesus Christ presented the value of his sacrifice before God in heaven (even as Moses sprinkled the blood on the book of the Law [for God was not personally present there]). Then, on Pentecost day, 33 C.E., Jesus poured out the holy spirit from God on the first ones brought into the new covenant, about 120 persons. Later that day about 3,000, Jews and proselytes, were added to the congregation. (Ac 1:15; 2:1-47; Heb 9:19) And just as Moses read the Law to the people, so Jesus Christ clearly enunciates the terms of the new covenant and its laws to those sharing in it.—Ex 24:3-8; Heb 1:1, 2; Joh 13:34; 15:14; 1Jo 5:1-3.

  Holding the offices of Mediator and High Priest, Jesus Christ, being immortal, is always alive and able to plead for those of spiritual Israel approaching God through him, so that he can mediate the new covenant until those persons receiving his mediatorial assistance are saved completely. (Heb 7:24, 25) He is able to conduct matters to the successful completion of the new covenant. Those in the covenant are eventually installed in the heavenly priesthood as underpriests with Christ, their great High Priest.—Re 5:9, 10; 20:6.

  Blessings

  to Mankind in General. While Jesus’ mediatorship operates solely toward those in the new covenant, he is also God’s High Priest and the Seed of Abraham. In fulfilling his duties in these latter two positions, he will bring blessings to others of mankind, for all the nations are to be blessed by means of Abraham’s seed. Those in the new covenant are first blessed by Christ, the primary Seed (Ga 3:16, 29), being brought in as associate members of the seed. Being made kings and priests by reason of the new covenant that he mediated, they will share in administering the blessings of Jesus’ sacrifice and of his Kingdom rule to all the nations of the earth. Christ’s mediatorship, having accomplished its purpose by bringing "the Israel of God" into this position, thus results in benefits and blessings to all mankind.—Ga 6:16; Ge 22:17, 18.

  There are, thus, others not of the 144,000 "sealed" ones who also pray to Jehovah God in the name of Christ, putting faith in the merit of his ransom sacrifice. This sacrifice is not only for those for whom Jesus mediates the new covenant but also for all mankind expressing faith in Christ. (1Jo 2:2) These not in the new covenant also appreciate that "there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." (Ac 4:12) They, too, look to Jesus Christ as their great heavenly High Priest, through whom they can approach God and through whose ministration they can get forgiveness of sin. (Heb 4:14-16) Revelation 21:22-24 points out that ‘the nations will walk in the light of New Jerusalem,’ where Jehovah God is the light and the Lamb Jesus Christ is the lamp.

  Why has it been made so complicated, when the scripture is so clear? "One mediator between God and men" End of story. Why does there need to be paragraphs to explain this relationship between one person and another group of people, and yet another group of people?

  Kwin
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  jwfacts

  In the first century the anointed had gifts of the spirit to identify them. The GB were inspired of holy spirit and everything they wrote in the bible was correct. So they were worthy of being followed. The WTS GB have no such gifts, nor do they claim inspiration. They are therefore not being directed of God and not worthy of being followed.
  
  defd,
  the sad consequence for you as one of the Great crowd is that;
  ---- the NT was not written for you
  Watchtower 1974 June 15 p.376
  “Also, it is to the spirit-anointed Christians who will rule in that kingdom that most of the Christian Greek Scriptures is directed, including the promises of everlasting life.”
  ----You can not see the kingdom of god
  “John 3:3-7 3 In answer Jesus said to him: “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
  ----You can not have a true relationship with Jesus
  Watchtower 1979 November 15 p.24
  “Jesus Christ in heaven is the Mediator between God and the spiritual Israelites…. Paul proceeds to say: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Tim. 2:5, 6. …
  Today, according to authentic records, there is a “great crowd” of dedicated, baptized Christians… who actively collaborate with the small remnant of spiritual Israelites. Ever since the spring of 1938 they have been invited to attend the annual memorial celebration of Christ’s death, not to partake of the memorial emblems, the unleavened bread and the red wine, but as respectful observers. … They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the “chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.”—1 Pet. 2:9….To keep in relationship with “our Savior, God,” the “great crowd” needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites.”
  ----Jesus is not your mediator
  Watchtower 1979 April 1 p.31 'Questions from Readers’
  “Is Jesus the 'mediator' only for anointed Christians?
  ...So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.
  The Great Crowd are not members of the body of Christ, not part of the congregation (it-1 p.498), are not born again, and are not Spirit directed. Yet Romans 8:9 says; “But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him.”
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  defd

  Kwin it looks to me that they are saying that Jesus is the MEDIATOR (go between) with those who are in the NEW COVENNANT. That is clear to me.

  For those who are NOT in the covenant he acta as a HIGH PRIEST.

  There are, thus, others not of the 144,000 "sealed" ones who also pray to Jehovah God in the name of Christ, putting faith in the merit of his ransom sacrifice. This sacrifice is not only for those for whom Jesus mediates the new covenant but also for all mankind expressing faith in Christ. (1Jo 2:2) These not in the new covenant also appreciate that "there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." (Ac 4:12) They, too, look to Jesus Christ as their great heavenly High Priest, through whom they can approach God and through whose ministration they can get forgiveness of sin. (Heb 4:14-16) Revelation 21:22-24 points out that ‘the nations will walk in the light of New Jerusalem,’ where Jehovah God is the light and the Lamb Jesus Christ is the lamp.

  Kwin He is the MEDIATOR with people who are in the New Covennant. We who are not, Jesus still is our mediator (go between) To God, look at what it says! It is clear to me.
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  jwfacts

  You are right Defd, shame the GB doesnt agree with you
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  defd

  You are right Defd, shame the GB doesnt agree with you Thanks jwfacts, but the GB does agree. That is exactlly what that information that kwin posted is saying.
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  jwfacts

  If you read the other quotes i added you will see it is said that Jesus is not your mediator. It is only 'by extension' to use a WTS phrase that you receive of these benefits.
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  kwintestal

  Kwin it looks to me that they are saying that Jesus is the MEDIATOR (go between) with those who are in the NEW COVENNANT. That is clear to me.

  For those who are NOT in the covenant he acta as a HIGH PRIEST.

  Where in the scripture does it say that Jesus is ONLY the mediator between God and those in the New Covenant (the 144,000) and he is High Priest to everyone else?

  There are, thus, others not of the 144,000 "sealed" ones who also pray to Jehovah God in the name of Christ, putting faith in the merit of his ransom sacrifice. ; This sacrifice is not only for those for whom Jesus mediates the new covenant but also for all mankind expressing faith in Christ. (1Jo 2:2) These not in the new covenant also appreciate that "there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." (Ac 4:12)

  This part is fine, as it's discussing Jesus' sacrifice ONLY, and not mediatorship.

  They, too, look to Jesus Christ as their great heavenly High Priest, through whom they can approach God and through whose ministration they can get forgiveness of sin. (Heb 4:14-16) Revelation 21:22-24 points out that ‘the nations will walk in the light of New Jerusalem,’ where Jehovah God is the light and the Lamb Jesus Christ is the lamp.

  This says that we can approach God through Jesus, in his role as High Priest, but not through his role as mediator. Obviously there is a difference, as the WT had made a difference. Why? The scripture is stated quite simply, One mediator for ALL man.

  Also, this later info seems quite different, softer I guess, from the position taken in 1986 and previously. Just a side note I guess.

  Kwin
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  OldSoul

  defd,

  I have noticed in this thread that some make comparison with the JWS and Catholics. They ask whats the difference. For one WE Worship the one and only true God Jehovah, THEY DO NOT. I know this, I use to be a Catholic. The Catholics pray to Saints and use the Saints as Mediators to God. WE do not. We pray to Jehovah through the proper Mediator, Jesus. The Catholics use IDOLS in there worship. They Light candles before them and kiss there toes and pray to them. We do not. I can go on and on. There is NO comparison .

  Okay. WE worship Jehovah, they do not. They use IDOLS in their worship, we do not.

  They pray to saints as mediators to God, we have the Faithful and Discreet Slave (a.k.a. the Holy Ones, a.k.a. "Saints") as our mediator to God. Or did you not know that according to the CURRENT CCoJW stand, 1 Timothy 2:5 applies to the Faithful and Discreet Slave alone? They learn from Jesus, by means of Holy Spirit. We learn from them, by means of publications. But, don't take my word for it:

  w98 2/1 p. 13 Jehovah Is a God of Covenants
  This is the new covenant that Jesus referred to on Nisan 14, 33 C.E. On that occasion, he revealed that the promised covenant was about to be concluded between his disciples and Jehovah, with Jesus as mediator. (1 Corinthians 11:25; 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 12:24) Through this new covenant, Jehovah's promise to Abraham was to have a more glorious and lasting fulfillment, as we will see in the following article. (defd, I encourage you to read the entire article and the followup article, for context)

  w93 1/1 p. 5 New Creations Brought Forth!In the year 29 of our Common Era, the perfect man, Jesus, presented himself to be baptized by John at the Jordan River. "After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.'" (Matthew 3:16, 17) Thus, the man Christ Jesus was the first of a new creation, anointed to do God's will. Later, on the basis of his sacrificial death, Jesus became the Mediator of a new covenant between God and a select group of men. Each of these has become "a new creation," begotten by God's spirit to a heavenly hope, with the prospect of ruling with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.---2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Timothy 2:5, 6; Hebrews 9:15.

  These articles demonstrate that the latest understanding of the mediation referred to at 1 Timothy 2:5. You mentioned "teaching false doctrine." Did the older men in Jerusalem teach false doctrine? Did Paul or Apollos teach false doctrine? Or did some from within the congregation teach false doctrine? They did not have to deal with false doctrine being promulgated from the Apostles and older men in Jerusalem.

  And Paul makes very clear that true Christians should never endure that. (Galatians 1:6-9; 2:1-5, 11-14) When Paul suspected that might be happening, he went to Jerusalem to straighten them out privately. When Peter, one of Jesus' closest companions, came to Antioch Paul resisted him face to face and publicly chastised him. Based on what? Cephas was not walking straight according to the Good News. Was Paul speaking abusively of a glorious one?

  Lastly, the Questions From Readers that established current dogma relative to the mediator:

  w89 8/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers
  Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the "mediator" who "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"?

  I won't post it here. Look it up. If you are sincere, you will not be afraid to honestly evaluate whether your religion's dogma is in accordance with Scripture.

  As to your style of argument, you bring up doctrine that the Catholics differ with Witnesses on and claim some sort of higher ground due to the fact that the Witnesses may have gotten some things right. The Catholics do the same. Catholics who remain Catholics often fail to look at the things they have gotten wrong.

  How do you know that they shouldn't use idols? How do you know that we should worship Jehovah? How do you know they should not pray to saints? From your study of the Bible, right? Well, I am asking you to share your Scriptural evidence that the Faithful and Discreet Slave is a class of people that has authority, as God's Spirit-Directed (Spirit Inspired) organization, to teach "new light" to the other sheep. If you don't have such evidence, on what do you base your belief in this doctrine?

  BTW, Catholics look at our doctrine of "other sheep" and compare that to the Scriptures. It doesn't measure up. When Jesus stated: "I have other sheep which are not of this fold," he was speaking to the Pharisees just after seeking out a man who had been expelled from the synagogue (disfellowshipped). Jesus sought the man out. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are the only religions I know of that take that Scripture out of context. To my knowledge, every other religion teaches that Jesus was comparing the Jews and Gentiles. Basically, the Pharisees had just made a Gentile out of the man Jesus healed. Jesus was trying to explain that the way would be opened for Gentiles to become one flock with the Jews, under one shepherd.

  So the Catholics can forgive themselves for the false doctrines they teach when comparing themselves to JWs by saying, "They teach that 1935 was the cutoff point for the heavenly calling, WE don't. They teach that anyone after that time is going to live on earth, WE don't. They issue false prophecies for year after year and they never come true, WE don't. They say that Jesus is only a mediator for less than 8,000 of their number, WE don't." Your logic is flawed. The presence of truth (even if it really is truth) does not excuse the presence of falsehoods.

  This brings up an interesting question: On what do Jehovah's Witnesses base the teaching that the heavenly calling had a cutoff point (except for replacements) in 1935? I have scoured the Scriptures, I have scoured the CD-ROM, and I find nothing on which to base that dogma. I suspect that the authority of the Faithful and Discreet Slave to reveal divinely inspired "new light" was invoked when it became apparent that there would be more adherents than the 144,000 doctrine could account for. I can tell you this, so far in our conversations I do not believe you will be able to find the answers to any of my questions. I doubt you will even try. The blind Pharisees are towing you behind, having eyes you refuse to see.

  You have been lulled into a coma. I truly hope you wake up. I have a feeling you and I could be friends.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
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  oldflame

  First I have noticed that JW's put religion where faith is. The scriptures states that there is one faith, one baptisum. Not one religion and one baptisum. The faith that Jesus was teaching was a faith in him and not a organisation.

  Personally if I were there in Christ time I would have followed him as my faith in Christ Jesus is pure and strong. If I could of only touched his clothing I would of been healed. If I had not seen Jesus and knew one of the Apostles I would of follwed them too. The New Testament is about Christ and not about a religion, never once in the scriptures does it say to follow religion but only and only through Christ can we gain entry to eternal life.