What would you have done?

by defd 90 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Big Dog

  Derrick,

  I'm not upset at all, I was just correcting what I thought was an erroneous statement. My wife gets really upset with a lot of the stuff people misunderstand about the Catholic church, even those that are members (I recall many JW's that really didn't understand the faith they professed to follow).

  From what I can see most christian faiths obviously share a great deal in the way of beliefs and practices, which according to my wife makes sense since all are off shoots of the original christian church. Having been raised a JW and attending the Catholic church for quite a while with my wife and being married to a Catholic I see many paralells between the religions and many differences.

  From a practical standpoint it seems to me that Catholics have a much more healthy outlook on living in this world and seem to be better adjusted as a whole than JW's. Just my observation, no empirical evidence is suggested.

  BD
• 

  Big Dog

  Derrick,

  Don't want to ignore your questions, asked the wife about the kissing of statues, she doesn't do it, and most don't do it (I personally have never seen it done in over 10 years of attending) but explained at length that for those that do is it not idolitry as they are not worshiping the statue, it is merely an act of respect and reverence for what the statue reperesents, a fine distinction, but to my JW roots plausible as the JW's were excellent in legalistic distinctions (ie. blood fractions vs. whole blood).

  As for the scriptures, most protestant faiths subscribe to sola scriptura, my understaning is that means that everything is contained in the bible, therefore church from the bible. The wife says the Catholic church believes the Bible was a product of the church and that there were traditions and teachings passed down by Jesus and the apostles that are not contained in the bible. Since the bible was not put together until around the 3rd century it makes sense to me that what the christian congregations were doing prior to the bible being assembled had to come from somewhere, so I understand the tradition arguement.

  Where the heck is Jeff Schwelm, he can explain this stuff so much better than I can second hand.

  I'm not advocating any position (Catholic, JW, etc.), just that once I got passed my JW bred thinking that the Catholic church was completely insane and actually looked at some of their teachings with an open mind, I have to admit they are not as silly as I was raised to believe, certainly no more so than the JW's.

  BD
• 

  oldflame

  Hibie,

  Certainly not to a kingdom hall or a mormon temple. I take my troubles to Christ. Jesus is my answer to all of life. What about you ?
• 

  mkr32208

  Sigh** I work so hard on my jokes and no one even notices them...
• 

  OldSoul

  Well, defd? How did your call to Headquarters go? Did they tell you that 1 Timothy 2:5 applies to you?

  1 Timothy 2:1-7 I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all---[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle---I am telling the truth, I am not lying---a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth.

  Try to explain, in that context, how it is that the mediatorship applies to only 144,000. That is absolutely the stand of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and is absolutely the stand of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Oh yeah. I forgot. You yell, insult, and get overly sensitive when you are unable to demonstrate Scripturally what your organization teaches as truth. What you don't do is show Scriptures that make your case. You call Headquarters and ask their permission for your beliefs. If they disagree, your beliefs change. But they aren't masters over your faith, are they defd? Far from it! After all, you have the correct understanding of Bible teachings...just as soon as they give it to you.

  I really hope you wake up from your stupor.

  OldSoul
• 

  OldSoul

  mkr32208,

  I think that the edited quote above speaks volumes about MY stand...

  That was very well done. I didn't realize you meant it as a joke, per se. I thought it was a well done analogy.

  Comparison to other situations is lost on a JW because of the insular environment they are given. Everything is "Us and Them" so anything "they" say can be ignored because "they" are foolish and ignorant.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
• 

  ithinkisee

  dEF'D SAID:
  They were basically saying that JWS and Catholics are much the same. So why dont you get on the individuals who said that? I was merely showing that we are NOT the same.

  Oh but they are the same. Check out this description of the Catholic Church:

  A History Of Christianity, Paul Johnson, pages 59,60 (ISBN 0684815036)

  Cyprian reasoned as follows. The Church was a divine institution; the Bride of Christ; Mother Church, the mediatrix of all salvation. It was one, undivided and catholic [universal]. Only in association with her could Catholics have life. Outside her holy fellowship there was nothing but error and darkness. The sacraments, Episcopal ordination, the confession of faith, even the Bible itself, lost their meaning if used outside the true Church. The Church was also a human, visible community, found only in organized form. The individual could not be saved by direct contact with God. The carefully graded hierarchy, without which the organized Church could not exist, was established by Christ and the apostles. . . .the only unambiguous instruction [the Scriptures] contained being to remain faithful to the Church and obey it’s rules. With Cyprian, then, the freedom preached by Paul and based on the power of Christian truth was removed from the ordinary members of the Church; it was retained only by the bishops [overseers], through whom the Holy Spirit still worked, who were collectively delegated to represent the totality of church members.

  Pretty fair description of what JWs would call a corrupt church right? Now, replace "Church" with "Organization".:

  Cyprian reasoned as follows. The Organization was a divine institution; the Bride of Christ; Mother Organization, the mediatrix of all salvation. It was one, undivided and catholic [universal]. Only in association with her could Jehovah's Witnesses have life. Outside her holy fellowship there was nothing but error and darkness. The sacraments, Episcopal ordination, the confession of faith, even the Bible itself, lost their meaning if used outside the true Organization. The Organization was also a human, visible community, found only in organized form. The individual could not be saved by direct contact with God. The carefully graded hierarchy, without which the organized Organization could not exist, was established by Christ and the apostles. . . .the only unambiguous instruction [the Scriptures] contained being to remain faithful to the Organization and obey it’s rules. With Cyprian, then, the freedom preached by Paul and based on the power of Christian truth was removed from the ordinary members of the Organization; it was retained only by the bishops [overseers], through whom the Holy Spirit still worked, who were collectively delegated to represent the totality of Organization members.

  I know you might have some lame excuse for the alarming similarities. I am interested in your response though.

  -ithinkisee
• 

  kwintestal

  That's freaky ithinkisee! Did you get that out of the Knowledge book?

  Kwin
• 

  hibiscusfire

  I take my troubles to Christ. Jesus is my answer to all of life. What about you ?

  Yes Jesus is our help...Lord and Saviour.

  Hibie
• 

  AK - Jeff

  I guess the question comes back to you, defd, why it is okay for the early church to have had so many troubles, but not thru the rest of history? Why is it okay for the JWs to be human and err (and be excused), but not orthodox Christians?

  I have never seen such a set of double standards in my life as what comes out of the WTBTS.

  Bebu - This is a point that I think is entirely correct. Over my 40 years in the borg asked that same question from time to time. Mostly I was greeted with a ghastly look, as if I had just blasphemed the God of Heaven [ I suppose that is precisely how it was viewed by them]. The exact same 'sins' that the Watchtower society uses to condemn the churches, they excuse within the organization. Pedophilia, shunning, lying by the clergy, wrong doctrine, bloodguilt, mis-quotation of scripture, doctrinal changes, political alliances, failure to show love, on and on ad infinatum!

  Defd - to the point though - early followers of Jesus did not try to create an 'organization' that claimed that any other followers of Christ were wicked and evil, even under the control of Satan, and a part of a wicked BTG, the world empire of false religion, did they? They did not attempt to turn Jesus simple parable about the 'faithful slave' into a prophetic reinterpretation that set one congregation up as the FDS chosen at a particular date invented by that group without evidence or even good chronology to support the thinking, did they? They did not expand the apostolic writings to include the medical use of blood as a form of 'eating blood' that was clearly condemned as issue, did they? They did not misintrepret, reinterpret, misinterpret, and reinterpret scriptures over and above the simple meanings that were obvious to the readers, did they?

  Sure there were problems, but the problems came from individuals who did not live up to Jesus' words. The problems never stemmed from those who determined that they were the sole mouthpiece of God and Christ and attempted to even steal the Mediatorship from Jesus himself.

  I did not read beyond Bebu's comments before posting this, so an apology if I covered points already well made.

  Jeff