Russell as "That Servant"; Re: Dunsscot

by AlanF 82 Replies latest jw friends

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  dunsscot

  :Duns,
  I have not taken the time to read the very lengthy threads that have been devoted to the Russell subject. Nontheless, I am providing two quotes that were made in 1917 regarding Russell. I would be interested in your interpretation of these. "The special messenger to the last Age of the Church was Charles T. Russell." (The Finished Mystery, 1917, p.53), and "The two most prominent messengers, however, are the first and last - St. Paul and Pastor Russell." (WT Nov. 1, 1917, p. 323). With this kind of veneration, it is surprising that they did not refer to these two mesengers as "St. Paul and St. Charles." Whatever Russell claimed from his own lips, it is pretty clear what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society thought of him.:

  I do not think there is any question what the WT thought of Russell at that time. Even Marley Cole made some very exalted comments about Russell in his work on JWS. But my point is that Russell himself never claimed to be the FDS of Mt 24:45-47. Admittedly, he may have wondered how Jehovah was using him, and what role he would play in the fulfillment of the said passage. But I have never seen any written evidence from Russell himself that proves he claimed to be the FDS.

  Duns the Scot

  "Nobody is taller than himself or herself."
• 

  D wiltshire

  Duns,

  So you won't take proof from the WT Society's publications that state he said he was, in private conversation?

  So does that mean you don't trust the WT Society literature?
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  Would you agree with the WT statement made in 1959, that God has used the JWs as his prophet?
• 

  dunsscot

  :Duns,
  So you won't take proof from the WT Society's publications that state he said he was, in private conversation?:

  There are two conflicting statements in the WT. The 1916 WT says one thing, while the 1927 WT says another. Rather than conclude that the WT ignorantly revised history in 11 years, I think that the writers of the 1927 WT realized they did not have proof that Rusell ever said he was the FDS. We cannot simply go on hearsay. I find it incredible that Russell supposedly called himself the FDS, while writing about "one [FDS] class" in the literature (See his 1881 and 1889 comments).

  :So does that mean you don't trust the WT Society literature?:

  No, it does not mean THAT. It just means that I try to read any journal critically and adjudicate its veracity in the light of reason and the preponderance of available evidence.

  Duns the Scot

  "Nobody is taller than himself or herself."
• 

  dunsscot

  :Duns,
  Would you agree with the WT statement made in 1959, that God has used the JWs as his prophet?:

  I have read similar statements in the WT. But before I ventured any comment, I would have to see the exact quote.

  Could you post it for us?

  Sincerely,
  Dan

  Duns the Scot

  "Nobody is taller than himself or herself."
• 

  D wiltshire

  Duns,

  Russel started the WT 1879 and in 1881 he said the FDS was all the anointed.

  But years latter agreed with his wife arguement that he was thee one and only FDS.

  Hear is the quote staight from the Proclaimers Book:

  *** jv 142-3 10 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***
  Thus, in the October-November 1881 issue of the magazine, C. T. Russell stated: “We believe that every member of this body of Christ is engaged in the blessed work, either directly or indirectly, of giving meat in due season to the household of faith. ‘Who then is that faithful and wise servant whom his Lord hath made ruler over his household,’ to give them meat in due season? Is it not that ‘little flock’ of consecrated servants who are faithfully carrying out their consecration vows—the body of Christ—and is not the whole body individually and collectively, giving the meat in due [s]eason to the household of faith—the great company of believers? Blessed is that servant (the whole body of Christ) whom his Lord when he has come (Gr. elthon) shall find so doing. ‘Verily, I say unto you, that he shall make him ruler over all his goods.’”

  Over a decade later, however, Brother Russell’s wife publicly expressed the idea that Russell himself was the faithful and wise servant. The view that she voiced concerning the identity of the ‘faithful servant’ came to be generally held by the Bible Students for some 30 years. Brother Russell did not reject their view, but he personally avoided making such an application of the text, emphasizing his opposition to the idea of a clergy class commissioned to teach God’s Word in contrast to a lay class that was not thus commissioned. The understanding expressed by Brother Russell in 1881 that the faithful and wise servant was in reality a collective servant, made up of all the members of the spirit-anointed body of Christ on earth, was reaffirmed in The Watch Tower of February 15, 1927.—Compare Isaiah 43:10.

  So Russel didn't reject the idea that he was the FDS did he?
  Since his wife voiced it, it was held for 30 years or (1897-1927).

  So 16 years after the 1881 WT it was taught until 1927.

  Correct me anybody if I'm wrong.
• 

  ianao

  Dunny:

  DS: No, it does not mean THAT. It just means that I try to read any journal critically and adjudicate its veracity in the light of reason and the preponderance of available evidence.

  What a load of BS. Let's read a critical analysis from you of one of the WT's recent articles that you theoretically "disagree" with. Oh, lemme guess... They don't make mistakes these days, right?
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  "Whom has God used as his prophet? By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah's Witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that
  God has been pleased to use them." (WT, Jan. 15, 1959, p.40)

  First of all, there is one error here. Many religions do not prophesy, so the WT assertion is presenting a straw man. Second, the WT history of prophecy is a tad flawed, to understate the case.
• 

  dunsscot

  Larc:

  :Duns,
  "Whom has God used as his prophet? By the historical facts of the case Christendom is beaten back in defeat. Jehovah's Witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that
  God has been pleased to use them." (WT, Jan. 15, 1959, p.40):

  I admit that the article did not make it clear in what sense JWs are "prophets." I think such clarification is provided elsewhere. I also found these quotes that temper yours:

  *** w59 1/15 39 Down with the Old-Up with the New! ***
  Today fear is more and more being expressed for the organized religion of Christendom. What is to come of it? For an answer, people should listen to the plain preaching by the remnant prefigured by Jeremiah, for these preach to men the present-day fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecies.

  *** w59 1/15 42 Down with the Old-Up with the New! ***
  Let the nations of today not despise the Word of Jehovah God, come though it may through the internationally hated body of Christians known as Jehovah’s witnesses. What they are saying and preaching to the nations is not their own word; it is taken from God’s written Word. “So, then,” says Paul, “the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who put his holy spirit in you.”—1 Thess. 4:8. Ap
  
  :First of all, there is one error here. Many religions do not prophesy, so the WT assertion is presenting a straw man. Second, the WT history of prophecy is a tad flawed, to understate the case.:

  All religions pretty much "prophesy" in the broad sense of the term that the WT is employing. The WT has never claimed to be a prophet, who could foretell the future infallibly.

  Duns the Scot

  "Nobody is taller than himself or herself."
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  larc

  Duns,

  Your disclaimer is weak, "who could foretell the future infallibly." Duns, their record is miserable, not only on the end of the world, but on the overtaking of England and the U.S. by Nazism (prohesied in 1938). The statments that the Bible predicted the modern transportation, Daniel 12:4 and Nahum 2:3, 4. Please read these scriptures and see what you think. Of course, these "prophecies were quietly dropped after a few years, because they were idiotic. How about the bowls being poured out in Revelation being fulfilled by yearly Witness conventions being held in the 1920's. Do you really believe that? If you haven't you should go back and read the early works of your religion. As a scholar, you may want to trace the history of the king of the north and king of the south in Watchtower interpretation.