by AlanF 82 Replies latest jw friends
Duns,
Were you to make the statement to others that the FDS/GB is not a true prophet, or even that it is not a prophet, you could summarily be disfellowshipped for apostasy. Or you could be declared as having disassociated yourself for rejecting the true channel, especially if you did not show up for the grilling session.
Did you know that?
UK Rector
erata,
Duns, my quote from your post was not complete. It should read that they were not infallible. However, my comments were base on what I meant to quote.
Duns,
I admit that the article did not make it clear in what sense JWs are "prophets." I think such clarification is provided elsewhere. I also found these quotes that temper yours:
What does "prophet" mean? Dictionary.com gives the following definitions:
1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
This is one of the most common meanings of the word, and if you’re not using it in this way, you should probably make sure that your context makes this clear. Otherwise, you could be considered guilty of leading your readers astray--implying something strongly, while leaving yourself the loophole of not expressly stating it.
2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
OK, I guess since the dictionary lists this as a possible definition, the WTS could have been saying this. But 100 years of context disproves it. Sure, they claim to have profound moral insight, but they’ve never used the specific word “prophet” attached to such a statement. I mean, come on, I am gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression, but I don’t go around calling myself the Prophet Hmmm. I don’t think you could find more than a handful of instances in the past 100 years of all publications that use the word “prophet” in this sense.
3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
This is closely related to the first definition. It seems to me the difference is merely one of chronology. Whether the divinely inspired one speaks of events in the future vs. past or present.
4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.
Again, the GB could have meant this definition when they used the phrase “his prophet,” but if they wish to be considered honest, the context (of this article, as well as that of their entire body of writing) must leave no doubt that they’re using a non-standard understanding of the word. I would accept this meaning if the GB were addressing how God feels about certain issues past or present. If they’re writing an article about how God views this current wicked world, and say that they pronounce this judgment as God’s Prophet, I could see it. But if they’re talking about events still future, the first and third definitions clearly hold sway.
*** w59 1/15 39 Down with the Old-Up with the New! ***I must confess that I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you focusing on preaching? Or do you mean to draw attention to the GB's role as predicter and spokesman?
Today fear is more and more being expressed for the organized religion of Christendom. What is to come of it? For an answer, people should listen to the plain preaching by the remnant prefigured by Jeremiah, for these preach to men the present-day fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecies.*** w59 1/15 42 Down with the Old-Up with the New! ***
Let the nations of today not despise the Word of Jehovah God, come though it may through the internationally hated body of Christians known as Jehovah’s witnesses. What they are saying and preaching to the nations is not their own word; it is taken from God’s written Word. “So, then,” says Paul, “the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who put his holy spirit in you.”—1 Thess. 4:8. Ap
The first quote could be taken a number of ways. They could be calling themselves prophet=interpreter, prophet=predicter, or prophet=spokesman--heck, let's throw in prophet=inspired for good measure. Maybe you should write to them to disambiguate (from the latin "kumbaya" for loophole).
I think you already know that calling the GB prophet/predicter is a lost cause.
I will lump prophet=inspired/spokesman/interpreter all together for rebuttal purposes. To claim the special status as prophet, you'd better be able to back it up. In fact, in matters not relating to predicting the future, your conduct and teachings must be rock solid.
Has Jehovah SO inspired the GB that they are noticeably correct more often than any other group? Has God inspired His Prophet to lie to us about the identity of the Superior Authorities? About what would happen to the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah? (Yes, lied. Changing your understanding once is bad enough, but when a "prophet" changes his story, then changes it back, the first change can only be a lie from God through his spokesman, or the prophet was a liar when he claimed to be inspired.) Did God give His Prophet the profound moral insight to let people die over issues of neutrality, then chang His mind? To let them die over blood, then change His mind? Vaccinations? Transplants? To protect child molesters because two witnesses weren’t present at a rape? Did He give them such exceptional powers of expression that the GB’s staunch supporters admit it's unclear what they mean when they use a very common word?
All religions pretty much "prophesy" in the broad sense of the term that the WT is employing. The WT has never claimed to be a prophet, who could foretell the future infallibly.This is a misrepresentation. When they say things like 'the end could no more fail to come in 1919 than yadda yadda yadda' they are making a very strong statement of infallibility. No, they've never said that they're 100% infallible for 100% of their prophecies of the future (though they admit this is the criteria that a true prophet must meet) but they have made predictions of the future and claimed that they were certainties.
Further, they strongly imply infallibility when they don't allow even minor disagreements with their prophetic=interpretations of scriptures. (This illustrates one of my absolute biggest gripes wih the GB. In 2000 they can be teaching that scriptureA = interpretationA. You accept this and get baptized. In 2001 they, invoking their role as prophet=interpreter, say scriptureA = interpretationB. You say you disagree with this. You are disfellowshipped. In 2002 they say scriptureA = interpretationA. They don't admit that they were wrong. They don't openly state that this is a change in doctrine (it takes an astute WT conductor to point it out). They don't apologize to anyone who was DFd for being right. In 2020--after their interpretation has flip-flopped four more times--you've been cut off from your family and friends for 19 years because you were more accurate than God's prophet=interpreter.)
When one points to their abysmal track record of predictions, or interpretations of scriptures, and thus disagree with their self-proclaimed role as prophet=inspired or prophet=spokesman, they are summarily cast out. What else is this but a claim through actions of being God's prophet?
Let's summarize for those unable to follow my semi-coherent ramblings:
Definitions of prophet:
1a. Inspired: God does not change. GB allows followers to die over doctrines that change. (blood, neutrality, transplants, vaccinations)
1b. Interpreter: Flip-flopping multiple times on scriptural interpretations. This means that they're wrong at least half the time. [Note: Forget the "tacking" excuse. Tacking moves one continually closer to the target--Divine Truth. Flip-flopping means that even if one understanding is getting you closer, the other must be taking you away from Truth.]
2a. profound moral insight: Pedophiles protected so as not to besmirch God's name. Higher education frowned upon to shelter members from criticism of faith. Dishonest habit of blaming rank and file when they trust GB's predictions.
2b. exceptional powers of expression: Most JWs can't explain GB teachings on "deep" matters. Duns admits they're vague on "prophet."
3. predicter: A near 0% success rate with predictions. [see also, 2a]
4. spokesman: See 1a and 2a.
So, Duns, however you choose to define "prophet," just how does the GB satisfy the criteria? I only looked at one dictionary. If you had another definition in mind, feel free to define and defend it. Warning: Try to stay away from obscure latinized meanings from out in left field, unless you can prove that the GB had them in mind when using the word.
Hmmm
[Edited because I can't format for crap]
