Qcmbr,
I understand what you are suggesting, however the Israelites had only one means by which to test whether a prophet was true or false. That method is given at Deuteronomy 18:21, 22. Now, if a prophet is a prophet uttering words in God's name but does not speak of future events he or she cannot ever be proved false. But, ANYONE that speaks in God's name of a future event that does not come to pass is a false prophet. Whether they ever claim to be a prophet or not.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
Can true Christianity have some false prophets and still be true Christians
by booker-t 38 Replies latest jw friends
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OldSoul
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Qcmbr
Is Jesus a false prophet for his remarks regarding His own return in that generation?
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TD
Like Narkissos observed, the JW Elder's line of reasoning would work just as well for any religion if mistakes truy don't matter.
If you really want to argue with them:
Jonah -- Calling the people to repentence is the sole reason behind the Divine warning in this story. If the people had ridiculed Jonah, stoned him to death and 40 days later the city was still standing, then yes, he would have been a false prophet. But that's not what happened. The people repented from the small one to the great.
Nathan -- As Old Soul pointed out, Nathan's initial statement was not made under the auspices of his office as prophet.
Peter -- Same thing as Nathan. Peter's personal views, mistakes and foibles are separate and apart from his capacity as an inspired writer. For this Elder's argument to hold water he would have to find something inaccurate that Peter committed to print which found it's way into the Bible. Of course the JW's won't do this because the believe the Bible is inerrant.
The problem with the JW's is that they present everything they commit to print as the product of Divine direction without equivocation. For them there is no dual nature to their writings because they don't distinguish between acting as "Jehovah's channel of communication" and merely offering personal views.
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Narkissos
Also, there is a huge difference between saying "we were wrong" and saying "we can be wrong now". (Memories of my JW father come back here.)
A question booker-t might ask: suppose the WT is wrong on, say, 1914. Suppose a JW comes to disagree with the current WT stance on 1914. What will happen to him/her? So what lessons have been learnt from past mistakes?
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Honesty
I find it curious that this Elder would use the arguments of - or at least ones simular to - Shabir Ally, a Muslim whose anti-Christian arguments are rebutted here. The Elder is not asking you to accept JWs as Christians, he's asking you to reject Christianity.
That's what the WitchTower Babble and Trick Society does best... reject Christianity.
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thinker
"The elders main point is that Jehovah does not expect his servants to be 100% right because he knows his people are human and subject to human error but he looks at the heart and does not judge the same way human beings judge and expect a 100% out of humans. "
Matt 5:48
Y OU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt 19:21 Jesus said to him: "If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower."
Ask him how many belonginngs the WT has sold to give to the poor.
thinker
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Mary
Examples that they generally bring up are when Nathan the prophet told King David to build the temple for worship but Jehovah did not want David to build the temple JW's argue that Nathan the prophet gave "false" information to a servant of God but yet the bible shows that Jehovah still considered Nathan a prophet and a servant even though Nathan was "wrong" and could have been considered a "false prophet" by the other pre-christian believers.
Perhaps these elders should try reading the bible instead of twisting the bible's words (as per usual) as an excuse for their own pathetic track record. Nathan did not come up with the idea of building a temple, David did as it says in the WTS's own literature: *** it-2 p. 471 "...When the king revealed to Nathan his desire to build a temple for Jehovah’s worship, the prophet replied: "Everything that is in your heart—go, do." (2Sa 7:1-3; 1Ch 17:1, 2) However, that night Jehovah informed Nathan that instead of David’s building a temple, Jehovah would build for David a lasting house, and that later on David’s descendant would build the house of Jehovah. Thus through Nathan, Jehovah announced to David a covenant for a kingdom "to time indefinite" in David’s line.."
So basically, David said "....Hey, I want to build a temple for worship..." and Nathan basically replied "..go for it.." until Jehovah revealed to him later on that He had other plans. Nathan did not give "false information" to David at all and this does not fall under the category of a "false prophet."
The next example the elder brought up was Jonah and the nivites. Jonah said "40 days" that they had left and nothing happened after the 40 days so Jonah gave some information that was "wrong" but Jehovah continued to use Jonah the same way he continues to use JW's today.
What total nonsense. Jonah never gave people "wrong" information. He was sent to Nineveh to warn the people that if they didn't change their sorry attitudes, then destruction would be coming their way:
*** w03 7/15 p. 17 The prophet Jonah was told to proclaim that the badness of that city [Nineveh] had ‘come up before Jehovah.’ Jonah finally obeyed and entered Nineveh, he kept declaring: "Only forty days more, and Nineveh will be overthrown." At that, "the men of Nineveh began to put faith in God, and they proceeded to proclaim a fast and to put on sackcloth." Even the king of Nineveh repented
Jonah 3:10 says: "The true God felt regret over the calamity that he had spoken of causing to them; and he did not cause it."
So no, Jonah wasn't a false prophet either. He gave a warning message to the people of the city and it worked. They all repented, so Jehovah didn't destroy them. So another pathetic illustration by this elder is not what he's trying to make it seem either, when examined closely.
The elders main point is that Jehovah does not expect his servants to be 100% right because he knows his people are human and subject to human error but he looks at the heart and does not judge the same way human beings judge and expect a 100% out of humans.
LMAO! So does this elder then apply his own criteria to other religions? If Jehovah doesn't expect humans to get their doctrines right, then what's the difference between being a Catholic, a Jew or a Witness?
This elder is one of the sharpest elders I have ever met. He says that born-again christians run from him when they see him coming because they can never answer his questions.
That's probably not why they're running away when they see him.
He told me that he has gotten several top-notch born-agains to admit Peter, Jonah and Nathan the prophet would be considered "false prophets" if we read Deut 18:20-22.
Really? Ask him to provide the names and addresses and/or phone numbers of these "top-notch born-again Christians so you can verify that they did indeed say this. I'm not exactly sure which example he's referring to when he said that Peter said someone would die and they didn't. What scripture is that in?
So the elder's point is that Born-agains have "double standards" when it comes to Christians and JW's. It is alright for Christians to do wrong things but JW's have to be 100% are they are false prophets.
Oh brother.........and Jehovah's Witnesses DONT' do the same f*cking thing??!!! The WTS itself publically and very verbally condemns every other religion on the face of the earth as being from the Devil and mocks and ridicules their teachings like no other religious group on earth. They tell anyone and everyone the they and they alone are the one true religion and everyone else is going to hell in a hand bag. They claim that the Supreme Being of the Universe is dealing only with 12 or 13 men in Brooklyn, New York and no one else on planet earth. They claim that they are God's "mouthpiece", the "Faithful and Discreet Slave", "Christ's Brothers", the "144,000" and the only ones who have Jesus as their "Mediator". With outrageous claims like that, are they really surprised when other religions think they should have a pretty good track record of prophecying, if God is really only dealing with them??!!
Another example the elder brought up is that St. Paul thought the kingdom of God was going to happen in his life time according to reading all of Thessolonians but here we are 2000 yrs later and what Paul thought surely did not come to pass and Paul was a prophet of Jehovah. So the elder ask was Paul a false prophet?
Paul's certainly is/was the cause of much disruption in the early church and he was responsible for steering "Christianity" down a totally different road than what Jesus did. Was he a false prophet? Hmmm.......I don't know. Did he claim that all his teachings were from God? Did he specifically say that something was going to happen on such-and-such a date? If he did and it didn't happen, then yes, Paul fits the description of a false prophet. And there's really no evidence that Jesus used him-----Paul never met Jesus in person and bascially took it upon himself to spread the gospel the way he saw fit.
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M.J.
My point is, that this elder must concede that the point of Deut 18:20-22 isn't that we have to be perfect in what we say when we speak on OUR OWN BEHALF, but if we predict something in the name of Jehovah, it IS A PROPHECY. If we DARE to do such a thing, WE BETTER BE RIGHT. Sure if I had a "false expectation" and expressed an opinion on it with the QUALIFICATION that it is strictly AN OPINION, not the WORD OF JEHOVAH, then I'm giving you the message that you are free to accept or reject what I'm telling you. On the other hand, the WTS leaders most definitely promoted these things as the word of Jehovah, not their opinions, and not even their "expectations". Here's a litmus test. Was a Member of the Society free to reject such "expectations" at the time they were being promoted? If not, then they were most definitely promoting them in the name of God. And as such, were committing a slander of His name.
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OldSoul
Is Jesus a false prophet for his remarks regarding His own return in that generation?
Qcmbr,
I believe that the Preterist perspective holds that Jesus honored his word.
Respectfully,
OldSoul