Posts by outbutnotdown

12

Pariah or Prodigal son?

by caspian in

jw
friends

.

who was really right the father or the firstborn son?

outbutnotdown

LT,

Is it not a basic CHRISTIAN philosophy, (not solely attributable to JW's), that without Jesus as our saviour, we are sinners? What if we are neither sinners nor perfect?

Actually, we've had many lengthy discussions about this in the past, so I'll just give you a simple theory of what I mean. When I send my kids out to play soccer or hockey, etc., I encourage them to do the best that they can, which implies that it comes from a POSITIVE mind-frame. I don't send them out and tell them that IF they screw up, it'll still be OK, that I'll still love them anyway. This instills in them an already NEGATIVE starting ground.

Yet this is what the basic premise of Christianity is...... all humans are screw-ups..... it's well recognized that children react best to POSITIVE life lessons and yet Christianity does it backwards, to a certain extent.

Brad

12

Pariah or Prodigal son?

by caspian in

jw
friends

.

who was really right the father or the firstborn son?

outbutnotdown

caspian,

I was thinking a little further about your question and I was wondering if you meant who was MORE right.

Ahhhh.... doesn't really matter.... it's a good life lesson, but I tend to lean more towards being perfect at birth and appreciating and respecting life rather than the more Christian theory of needing to be in fear of it all the time. None of it is perfect..... just works better for me.

Brad

12

Pariah or Prodigal son?

by caspian in

jw
friends

.

who was really right the father or the firstborn son?

outbutnotdown

caspian,

I think I'll take a stab at your question, however broad.

I remember always thinking, when I was younger, that the firstborn son got the raw end of the deal, since he had always stayed dedicated, yet never got the feast that his younger brother got. However, when I consider that the father did say that everything of his belonged to his oldest so, I think that he still got his reward.

But this parable is about God being there for us and he will always be there for us, but he is likewise if we leave, (or sin), for awhile. Good parable, but not completely relative, IMO.

Have you ever read the Buddhist prodigal son story, where the life lessons are somewhat different?

Brad

25

Today's JW Is Yesterday's Failure!!!

by minimus in

jw
friends

the typical jehovah's witness no longer is the strong, spiritual giant.

lately, i hear more and more "very inactive" jws that haven't gone to a congregation meeting in years, still consider themselves good jws.

they are like "home baptists".

outbutnotdown

Hi minimus,

What is your point, exactly?

I agree that a lot of JW's are "devout" despite not doing as much as what is preached that they should be doing. However, I think this has been true for decades. If you get a bunch of wife-abusers together, they will leave their little gathering believing that they are more justified, simply due to the support they have gathered from their peers. It doesn't make it any more right.

The best that we can do, IMVHO, is to show them how we can be happy outside of their belief system. Love does conquer hate. Good does conquer evil. Or it doesn't...... it's up to each individual to make that determination. We need to try to help our fellowman only to the point where our fellowman will hurt us. Personally, I love as unconditionally as possible my JW family. However, I will not allow myself or my family to suffer any harm at their expense. At this point, conditions are introduced. Everything in balance.

Brad

14

When & How Did You Get The JW ULTIMATUM?

by Corvin in

jw
friends

flyinhighnow's recent post about the nephew and his ultimatum email got me to thinking .

when and how did you get the ultimatum (to come back to jehovah or lose my love and friendship/association) and from whom?.

corvin

outbutnotdown

Hi Corvin,

When I was 17 my father was in a suicidal state again (and despite the fact that the rest of my family, (all older), felt that he was just manipulating us and they had all disowned him, I stayed by his side). He promised me that because of my dedication to him, he would never attempt it again. He lied. It was the beginning of the end of the "JW ultimatum".

The good thing was that, with the JW hierarchy of the father being the head etc., I had begun to realize that this JW God was full of sh*t as far as the love thing goes.

The last straw was shortly after the birth of my first of four children. My brother called up and reminded me that, if I didn't put myself back in good standing in the JW God's eyes, that my son would die, since I am the head of the household......... same old crap, just different generation...... as much as it sucked to hear that and later, to realise how jaded my brother's view of life and love is, it was the final "ultimatum".

The rest of my life has been a great, free ride, still full of challenges, but FREE!!!!!!

I have always loved this quote by, I believe, Montaigne:

"Man must surely be stark mad. For he cannot create a flea, but he creates Gods by the dozens."

Brad, of the "I refuse to create any new Gods" class.

13

What has changed since I left/got kicked out in '92?

by outbutnotdown in

jw
friends

i have long ago come to the conclusion that the jw religion is a negative influence on society for many reasons.

their "love" is so conditional that it doesn't count as love..... their prophecies are contradicted by many different, more accurate dates from which their chronolgy is based (587 b.c.e rather than 607 b.c.e., for example).... and i could go on, but most here have developped an understanding of why the witnesses do not have "the truth", so enough said about why we are where we are.. but what has changed in the last 12 years, since i left?

i felt that the about-face on the 1995 generation change of thought brought a lot of people out, and thankfully so.

outbutnotdown

Hi all,

I have long ago come to the conclusion that the JW religion is a negative influence on society for many reasons. Their "love" is so conditional that it doesn't count as love..... their prophecies are contradicted by many different, more accurate dates from which their chronolgy is based (587 B.C.E rather than 607 B.C.E., for example).... and I could go on, but most here have developped an understanding of why the Witnesses DO NOT have "the truth", so enough said about why we are where we are.

But what has changed in the last 12 years, since I left? I felt that the about-face on the 1995 generation change of thought brought a lot of people out, and thankfully so. But I have been reading other topics about how they seem to not really care about the "new book" part anymore and that how the Governing Body seems to have changed, as far as their power goes. This passiveness could be good in a sense, but it could also be bad. It would likely soften the Witnesses, as a group, as far as how EXTREME they are allowed to appear to be to the general public, but it would tend to not shake peoples' comfort zone enough to allow them to question their faith as a whole.

I have my entire immediate family still trapped in that religion and I have been waiting patiently for their innate human tendency to see through BULLSH*T to come through, but I now wonder if they will find comfort in the fact that they are becoming better adjusted instead.

What does anybody else think? Don't worry, I am comfortable enough with where I am in life to stay on the outside but I still have a desire to be reunited with my family as well......... and I was hoping that their rigidity/close-mindedness would force some of my family out.

Brad

26

I need loving hearts to send help to another EX-JW

by mouthy in

jw
friends

i am asking any who could take the time-to send encouragement to an ex jw-she was raised as one- her mother died for refusing blood...she married out of the org- & was dfellowshipped.

the fellow she married was an alcholic---didnt understand her feelings about being ousted!!!!

!a couple of months ago she tried to kill herself.why????

outbutnotdown

Grace,

Sorry to hear about your friend, Rosilie. I live in London. I'm not sure if I ever met her..... I lived here from 1990 to 1992, before I left the org. But, if you want to pm me, you can let me know where to send a card. It's sad that a lot of deeply emotional people, (who are also quite often the most loving, too) are capable of falling into these depressions as well. I can relate to her predicament..... (my father was in a similar state).

My best thoughts are with her.

Brad

27

Jehovah's gonna get ya. Or is He?

by Lady Lee in

ok. most of us here at one time believed in the teachings of the wts.

thankfully most of us are beyond that.. i have noticed that at times i will find some other way, any other way, to avoid using the name jehovah.. and i know i'm not alone.

i see what you post!

outbutnotdown

Lady Lee,
I personally have no "fear" of using/not using the word Jehovah, but I try to use it/not use it in appropriate circumstances. For example, on here, I tend to discredit the name more freely and without any fear of repercussions. However, if I am speaking to a JW, I will try to throw in God more than Jehovah, but I will still say the name, otherwise the buggers won't listen to a thing I say, right?

Everything in balance.

Brad

61

Pastor Russell and 1914

by Kenneson in

jw
friends

1. russell did not believe that 1914 marked the "beginning of the end" as do jehovah's witnesses.

rather, he pointed to 1799 for that (i.e., see zion's watch tower for nov. 7, 1893, page 24: in commenting on the discovery of the rossetta stone he states: "[the point is that 1799 was the very year beginning the time of the end when many would run to and fro and knowledge be increased.

' dawn, vol iii, chapter ii--editor]" .

outbutnotdown

RR,

I was actually implying that probaly both JW's and Bible Students helped you in that, since you didn't say that specifically, since I regard them as equally controlling in a negative nature.

As far as the junkie scenario goes, I find it interesting that you SEEM to be comparing people who don't listen to you here as comparative to junkies, but that's your judgment to make, not mine. I don't accept it.

However, I would hope that you wouldn't "preach" to a junkie on the street. I would hope that you would show compassion to him and let him know that you are willing and able to help him, IF HE WANTS IT, and more imporatantly, HOW HE NEEDS IT. A junkie is not a junkie simply because he does drugs. Taking drugs from him would not heal him. The disease would go much deeper than that.

You said: As to my saying anything nice to anyone here, who here has aid anything nice to me? You expect me to just sit back and say nothing? not defend myself? Hardly!!!

I hate it when I can't say it without sounding sarcastic, but I honestly can't think, at the moment how to say it any differently than this, so I apologize in advance for the sarcasm......... Pastor Russell and the boys who taught you forgot about Jesus' Golden Rule, did they?... GEEZ!!!! You musn't be nice to too many people if you are only nice to those who are nice to you.

Brad

16

Problems with JW daughter-in-law

by QCA1 in

i haven't been here in a long time so i'd like to say hi again.. i do want to share something with you if i may.

over a period of time my grandson who is 15 has been allowed to come over and stay with us as my yougest son is his uncle who is 16 they got on so well together talking football and rapping music.he would phone my son on a regular basis,and then his mother said he could stay over sometimes.the more he stayed with us the more he opened up about what was happening to him at home,he told me he didn't want to be a jw and was always rebellious towards it this i always knew.he is only allowed out with jw friends he he is monitered whilst on his computer and when he phoned my son his mum or dad(my eldest son)were always present.so he wasn't allowed a private phone call,my grandson told me that his mum and his dad were hitting him really hard and on several occasions he wanted to leave home.. i listened intently and felt sad and disappointed that he was being treated in this way as his dad was never treated that way as a child.my eldest son married a jw girl and after a few years i saw the change in him.

my daughter-in-law however is a control freak and she was hitting my grandson when he was a toddler as i threatened her once i would report her, not long after they moved to another area.. time went by and normality resumed.anyway,my grandson was telling me that his mother is bombarding him about armageddon and that if he dosen't conform he will die with no hope,he said nan i don't really believe that.

outbutnotdown

Hi QCA1,

A lot of good advice so far. Outnfree's point about your grandson feeling that maybe controlling his eating is about the only thing he can control is a good one. This would not likely be a conscious decision, but since it is possibly a subconscious one, is evidence that HE FEELS abused or hurt, emotionally.

Also, Bryan's point about him asking for your help... is potentially his last cry.... he may go into a shell and become introverted if you don't help. (Not to put too much pressure on you... :) )

Happy guy's advice is probably the best, once you take into consideration that it would certainly seem that he DOES NEED and WANT help. I think the school approach would be best.

I have four kids and I am going through a divorce. My kids are younger..... 10,7,5,4.... but as their ages go up, they are showing more signs of cries for help, because of mostly emotional abuse by their mother and grandmother, ironically. I am very close to getting them out of there, but because of their ages, I have to do it 100% through the court system. Their cries for help, however, are not dissimilar to your grandson's.

Not to sound disrespectful to your son, but he doesn't know the harm he is causing his own son right now. He is evidently too wrapped in the obey Jehovah at ALL costs mentality, or is potentially being too controlled by his wife (I can relate to him on that one... doh!) and is not seeing the big picture. You are probably best equipped to look out for your grandson's best interest, but if your laws are similar to here in Ontario, Canada, as a grandparent you have no custodial rights to interfere. So it will have to be your grandson's wishes.

One other point that I thought about expressing..... I was never very good at pretend games, so I don't think I could pull it off myself, but if it could work for you, try to see if you can go so far as to let your son believe you went too far and that he was right..... to get back in, on the good side of them and work on your grandson from there. Tell your grandson flat out that you want to make sure he leaves safely, since his dad might just be going through a rough time and not seeing how he is hurting him. Assure him that you are not taking him away for good.... just until dad "feels" better. Even though he hates what his dad and mom are doing to him, he will still need assurance that his paternal bonds will not be severed for good.

I wish you the best,

Brad