the bottom line for them it seems is to keep their superiors happy (i.e., the co).
so as long as people report time, it makes the elders look good.
do any elders actually care if it's real or not?
NewYork44M,
Now, I am sure that if I report 40 hours they would question. However, if I reported 5 or 6, then everyone would be happy.
Amen! And you got in a real 2 hours, you could have reported 10 or 12.
Moshe,
You are likely right that there is a lot of faking going on ... the JWs here in the Chicago suburbs use to come around two or three times a year ... but I have not seen one in over two years. I was his return visit, and that is the only reason I saw them at all.
the bottom line for them it seems is to keep their superiors happy (i.e., the co).
so as long as people report time, it makes the elders look good.
do any elders actually care if it's real or not?
When I was Secretary, I collected all the Time reports ... and yes we cared if the time was real ... sort of ... I recall that one "sister" routinely turned in 40 to 60 hours a month, and no one ever worked with her in Service or even saw her out in Service. We discussed her time reports in our Elder's meetings ... and decided to let it ride until we had proof to the contrary ... however, once in a while we would ask the "sister" what she was doing to get such good time in ... and she always had cool explanations like some "worldly" family member visited and they talked about the "Truth" until the wee hours of the morning for several days ... so, what could I say? She could have been a flaming apostate and running down the organization to her "family" but to her it was talking about the "Good News." So, I just recorded and reported to the Society.
But, for those less exotic JWs who reports 1 to 10 hours ... yes, they could easily fudge, and the Elders really did not care ... as long as we saw them show up to Service sometimes, we assumed the rest was spent "witnessing" to relatives and friends ... and because I started the idea of using a computer program to track reports by Book Study ... I was able to keep each BS Conductor updated each month as to the progress of Publishers in his group ... and this proved really helpful in squeezing hours out of the weak and forgetful ... just make a call and convince the "weak one" that he or she did do some witnessing that they forget about ...
It went something like this, "Well, Sister Weak, did you have 'worldly' family over this month? "Oh, yes Brother Secretary, I forgot, my brother and his wife, they are Catholics you know, they visited last week in fact ... and I placed that new Awake! with them." "Ahhhh ... you see Sister Weak, you are still regular in Service ... you just forgot ... so can we call it an even hour and 1 or 2 magazines placed?" "Well, Brother Secretary, they did stay two days, and I gave them three magazines and a Truth book. Oh yes, and he likes science and I also gave him the book on Life - How did it get here?" Wow, Sister Weak ... well with that kind of activity, 3 mags, two books, you had to have spent at least 2 or 3 hours talking about it ... " ... "Why yes, Brother Secretary, now that you mention it ... yes, let's say 3 hours for sure." Okay, you got it Sister Weak ... soon you will be an Aux. Pioneer, you just wait and see."
And, believe me, these kinds of conversations did take place each and every month with many weak JWs. We poked and prodded to see if they even "mentioned" the "Truth" to their children in passing and got them to call it a "family study." We took our congregation from 30% irregular and inactive up to 95% regular, 4% irregular, and only 1% inactive. We went from being the "Armpit" of the Circuit to a showcase congregation. The CO? He asked us how we did it ...and we just told it like it is, plus boasted about our shepherding calls, blah, blah, blah ... and presto, we were now the featured Elders on Circuit Assemblies and District Conventions. There was a side benefit in that some of the "weak" Jws did get enthused again, and started Aux and Reg Pioneering, and this lifted the "morale" and others increased their hours ... so, while there was some fudging on all sides, it did have its positive effects ... if you can call being a JW and going in Service a "positive" thing.
The whole system is like the King with No Cloths on - everyone is putting on a show - even the real Pioneers who put in the time - it's all a show ... a fake religion that gets fake results and lies to itself about how well it is doing in Jehovah's eyes.
can't say i go there much but the two topics below are on the front page jehovah's witnesses: watchtower society official web site.
what financial contributions are expected of those attending meetings of jehovahs witnesses?.
is it wise to invest in the stock market?.
504deist,
The Watchtower can and does publish some nice 'balanced' information for public consumption ... it is what only gets published to JWs, such as the Kingdom Ministry or things said orally during CO visits or privately to Elders that more often gets ugly and out of balance.
if someone came to your door with a religious message and you were attracted to it, would you immediately google the religion and find out its pros and cons?.
Yes, in the western world here the Internet is easy to access, there has been a slowing of growth for the JWs ... to almost a standstill ... though it sometimes picks back up a little. It will likely never return to the exciting days in pre-1975 when we grew so fast we did not have room in our Kingdom Halls to hold everyone.
so a congregation wants a kingdom hall.
the society loans it the money, with interest.
the labor is free.
JimmyPage,
The Society charged 3% interest for about three decades, then increased it, and then lowered it back again. There were two reasons for the interest charge. The original Kingdom Hall fund was from an estate that was willed to the Society to manage ... it was not Watchtower money. The estate set up the fund to finance Kingdom Halls, and required the 3% to cover the usual average cost of inflation. The Society did not make money as they had to return the money to the estate fund and loan out to other new Kingdom Halls, or for remodeling and expanding existing Halls.
Eventually, inflation out-paced the interest charge. I recall inflation hitting 12% and more in the late 1970s. In those cases the funds used for Kingdom Hall construction were falling behind - losing money. So, the Society eventually increased the interest charge to 6%, which was still too low. Also, the Society expanded the Kingdom Hall building fund by seeking additional donations and loans from JWs. Eventually, the interest charge came back down to 3% as inflation cooled down in the mid-1980s onward.
I do not know of the Society eliminating the interest charge as claimed by MinisterAmos. If they have, they are losing money, and they are foolish to do so, because in the last 15 years or so, the economy has inflated at about 3%. The Biblical injunction against interest charges was not a prohibition against building and construction loans or against Christians making a profit. Rather, it was a prohibition of charging interest to a "brother" who was having personal financial troubles. It was intended to help Christians to be merciful with a brother in hard times, and not take advantage of him. When I was a JW, I went through such hard times and was loaned money interest free by kind and generous fellow JWs.
The Watchtower Society does not make a profit on Kingdom Halls. Aside from the low interest barely covering inflation, the local congregation owns the Hall. The Society is named as beneficiary in the event of the demise of the Hall, so that if a congregation turns "apostate" it can never again seize the Hall as was the case in the Bonham, Texas lawsuit. However, if the local congregation sells the Hall and builds another, they keep the funds toward that project, not the Society. If the Watchtower Society starts making a profit on anything, they can be disallowed their non-profit status and be forced to pay income taxes. As much as we disagree with the Watchtower Society, and as bad as they have proven to be, they are not entirely stupid ... and they are not going to take that level of risk, especially since they do not need such a risk.
i have been following a number of threads here periodically and have decided to join so as to contribute.
i was wondering if any of you would have any idea as to the value of the book mentioned in the title of this thread "pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock," the elusive elders manual.
you see, my grandfather died recently and, unbeknownst to "the others" i managed to obtain said book before anyone else could.
Cthulhu,
As jamiebowers said it is available on line, so the demand is low. AllTimeJeff is correct, it may have some value in 50 years. Comparatively, the very first printing of the Finished Mystery book contaiing the language that offended the US Government, is worth a few hundred dollars ... but it is a rare book used in a historic setting almost 100 years ago. I too had a hard copy of the Pay Attention book, however it is in the hands of attorneys who used it as an exhibit in the child abuse cases. But, as Jeff stated, hang on to your copy, as it will become rare over time as copies are tossed out by ex-JW Elders, and also when the Society collects the copies turned in, and destroys them.
this is an interactive database of people around the world telling stories about their healthcare.
uk, australia, france, canada...people in a variety of systems - universal, social and single payer - talk about their experiences using their health care services.
people in the united states need to start listening to these stories instead of the media lies and political misrepresentations or ommissions of facts that only serve their needs...stop being afraid and start educating yourself for yourself.
Sammielee24,
I think purps that it is because other countries are tired of the lies that Americans are believing.
What lies? Name one, and specifically who is telling it? Do not name some global vast right-wing conspiracy, instead name the person and quote them and give the source citation.
...some of those I read daily on this board and hear on all the talk radio (right wing) shows.
Who? Name a lie, quote the person and provide the source citation.
For people like Amazing who say that Americans aren't disrespecting other countries like Canada, they are wrong. I've sat and listened to Americans call people in other countries liars for telling about their own personal, good experiences because they can't fathom anyone having a good health care experience because the way it is applied, doesn't fit their ideology.
Who? name a quote a person and give source citations? Americans simply want debate and for issues from all sides to be heard. Many do not want a socialist model ... that is not disrespect, but rather a value system. If other nations want socialism, and like it that is their business.
I've had good care here in the USA but as I've said over and over again, I've had care as good as and better in Canada.
Great. The quality of care is not the issue, and to raise it is a red herring argument.
That is not disrespecting the American health care, it is a point of view having had experience with both. The entirety of care is
that of whole care and not based on just one aspect of it, financial, physical, emotional - and in my view all those considered,
Canada comes out on top.
That is your opinion. What Canadians like and want and what is good for Canada may not be good for America.
We are also tired of omissions. All those Canadian people running screaming for care in the USA are a figment of context.
Here in Chicago, a reputable ABC affiliate, WLS 890 radio, interviewed Canadians who tell us the problems with the Canadian system and why Canadians who need immediate care are rushed to the US because they cannot afford the wait in Canada. I recently listened to this program air in the last two months.
Snowbirds, 1.5 million of them bring tourist dollars to the USA and buy health insurance for the months they are here.
Please cite sources. What we are talking about are not tourists ... but actual patients who come to our hospitals for care.
The people using that insurance in the USA while they are in the USA are in the yearly figures that the right wing media keep spouting.
There is no "right-winged media in the USA. This is another popular myth. Fox News is often called right-winged because it features both sides, whereas ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, and others tend to mostly feature leftist views. Talk radio has more programs that lean right, but there are left-wings programs are well ... and of the thousands of news papers, only a handful lean right, such as the Washington Times.
...that is not people running over the border...it's people who have vacation homes here and who use the medical services they need while they are here with the insurance they bought. As for cross border - those surgeries are in fact far less than 1% of all care in Canada and those surgeries fall into two categories a) the wealthy who want to buy their way through the system because they don't want to wait and b)those paid for by Canada in agreements with USA hospitals who benefit from the payment just as the patient benefits from the care.
Far from it ... cite sources.
The very fact that Canada will pay for that care, is an indicator of the attitude of the government of the country...a far cry from the elderly being criminals because they try to import drugs from Canada and the government here won't let them.
The reason that the FDA will not permit imported drugs from Canada is that the sources are not controlled. It had to do with their lawful mandate. Illinois Gov. Blagojeivich attempted to get around this and import Canadian drugs ... but was stopped. Canadians pay for their drugs though their heavy taxation ... and that is good for them ... and they do not need Americans buying up their supplies, and driving up their prices.
The real issue is that socialism comes with a price ... a price that much of America does not want to pay ... we want some improvements in our "existing" system ... but our Government cannot even run a Post Office ... our infrastructure funds for highways and bridges is not being used properly, and our Government has stolen our Social Security to fund the Viet Nam war ... and we are going to trust them with out health care?
Canadians maybe love and trust their government ... but that is not for America.
Everyone everywhere is just getting tired of the lies and they just want it to stop and for American to deal with these dirty problems without constantly degrading the systems that work in their countries. They just want people to know there is another way to do business.....sammieswife.
What lies ... name names, quote and cite sources? Do not make this global jibber-jabber nonsense ... use some real arguments with facts and figures. We are well aware of various ways to do business ... we watched the Soviet Union socialism collapse of its own weight ... we all do not want to do that kind of business ... again, if Canada wants it, let them have it ... and for those Americans who want socialism, maybe they need to make a move elsewhere ... but socialism is not for America.
this is an interactive database of people around the world telling stories about their healthcare.
uk, australia, france, canada...people in a variety of systems - universal, social and single payer - talk about their experiences using their health care services.
people in the united states need to start listening to these stories instead of the media lies and political misrepresentations or ommissions of facts that only serve their needs...stop being afraid and start educating yourself for yourself.
Purplesofa,
Thanks for the following quote ... but there are false, loaded language and very unreasonable arguments made in it. I have yellow highlighted the problems:
My mother needed 2 heart surgeries that would have bankrupted an American family. My father required radiation for prostate cancer. All was covered under our amazing healthcare system. We pay a small amount in premiums for security for our families that Americans should also enjoy! Particularly as you are a leader in developed countries & one of the richest countries in the world! Perhaps the 1% of the very rich could begin returning some of what the working poor & middle class in your country have provided your corporations for generations, by providing healthcare for all of your citizens. It is a disgrace to attempt to smear our healthcare system & your wonderful new President in order to continue to deny your own people the peace of mind that universal healthcare provides. Neanderthal, unevolved tactics are revealing the ugly & self-serving true colours of the detractors of this progressive & humane attempt to bring the U.S. into compassionate alignment with other enlightened countries in the 21st century. by kate, Manitoba, Canada
Response to the Canadian woman: The wealthy in the nation, that is those that make $250,000 per year or more pay about 90% of all the taxes anyway. We are not smearing Canada The or our new President, we simply disagree with him. It is Canadians who come to America for treatment who tell a different story of the Canadian system. I frankly do not care what Canada does, as I like the German model better anyway, as it is done through private enterprise. To call those who disagree with the proposals and who wish to debate the issues and who want to look at another way as "Neanderthal and unevolved" is little more than emotional blackmail, as you have no real substantive arguments, so you resort to name calling of anyone who dare to disagree with you. Your arguments fail to be appealing or logical.
we all know that hiroshima and nagasaki were destroyed in august 1945 after explosion of atomic bomds.however we know little about the progress made by the people of that land during the past 64 years.see the colorful city of hiroshima today.. the reason i mention this:when the economy turned south the past year,the leaders of the wbts were happier than flies on cow dung.it gave them a reason to spout off and tell people how foolish it was to put trust in this system and not god's(1914) kingdom which is just around the corner.. well the people of hiroshima and nagasaki did not put their trust in the wbts so called kingdom around the corner cow dung.it's 64 years later since the a bomb and that kingdom is still not here.what king of city would they have if they listened to the gb.they would still be living in the rubble.. bob .
Bobid,
We all know that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed in August 1945 after explosion of atomic bomds.
However we know little about the progress made by the people of that land during the past 64 years.
We actually know a lot about the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the progress of the people of Japan ... among the many things that we learned, is that while nuclear warfare is horrible, and we really do not want to go there again, if one does happen, it is not the end of the world. We also know that these cities recovered, and they are thriving cities today, as is the entire Japanese economy. It was the United States that pulled them out of the rubble, financed and protected Japan so it could use all of its resources on rebuilding and not have to spend on a military. General Douglas MacArthur gave them their constitution that they use to this day. Combined with help from the US and Japanese work ethic, they have become an economic powerhouse and a close friend and ally.
As for the Watchtower prophecies and claims, there is honestly no relevance to the Japanese who are largely Shinto and Buddhist and then Christian. JWs are little more than a minor blip in the Japanese culture. What you say about listening, or not, to the Watchtower is true of any society ... if they sit around they will not make progress.
Even the Watchtower does not listen to its own advice, as it builds and plans for years ahead with building locations, printing presses, magazine production, etc. They themselves act as if there is no worry with tomorrow ... why? ... because deep down they really do not believe in their own swill.
yes, the title of the thead is ironic i know, but i couldn't think of an alternative.. what do i mean by "normal" life in the truth?
well, having good friends you grew up with.
having a social life.
Hi Farkel,
My email is [email protected]. Likewise its good to see you posting ... I pop in and out at times ... not like I used to do. When you email me, I will share my phone number and we can catch up on life ... I am back in Illinois after spending almost a year at a nuke plant in northeast Wisconsin. I will also copy this to a PM just to be sure you see it.
I enjoyed your comments on the thread about the LDS and the Mormon Temple. I never went to visit any of the Mormon facilities ... but I did pass by them several times as I traveled on I-80 east or west. I agree with you that their Temple is an edifice that looks like it is dedicated to God ... whereas the Watchtower buildings looks like something dedicated to a corporation.
I look forward to hearing from you.
