Posts by artful

6

Jesus temptatation by Satan...a JW conumdrum

by logansrun in

some liberal christians view the charachter of satan as being a symbol for the evil within humans which tempts us all.

the jws will often point to jesus being tempted by satan as being proof that this is an unreasonable explanation since "jesus was perfect and he could not have evil thoughts in him.

" now this raises a conumdrum for a similar, but related matter.. just what can a perfect person do or not do when it comes to "sinful" thoughts?

artful

Some very interesting comments here Bradley! If the JW's teach that because of Jesus' perfect state he did not have any "evil thoughts" in him to cause him to sin, then by extension they would have to teach that Adam was also not capable of sin. I think one example of an "evil" or sinful thought by Jesus (assuming that an "evil thought" is something that goes against God's will) would be his prayer for his Father to "allow this cup to pass" from him. This thought originated with Jesus and was obviously not something that was in line with God's will.

Since there was a temptation of Christ by Satan then by definition Jesus must have had free will and the possibility to succumb to this temptation - whether it originated within him or externally. If there was no possibility of Jesus succumbing to any temptation (because he was perfect) then Satan's offer could not really be considered a temptation at all. I would suggest that they very fact something could tempt Jesus indicates that it is possible for a "perfect" being to entertain evil thoughts and therefore sin.

Good point about free will. I have often wondered how a perfect "utopian" society could exist as long as there is free will. Because as long as we have free will there is the possibility of sin. However, the Bible does speak about those raised in the Kingdom of God as being not just "immortal" (which by definition does not indicate that one is it not "capable" of sin - but rather refers to being exempt from death), but also "incorruptible" - which by definition does mean that they are not capable of sin. This leads to another very interesting question...does being "incorruptible" (and therefore sinless) mean that one must give up their free will?

Also, there is the question of why didn't God just create all of us "immortal" and "incorruptible" in the first place?! Not that I necessarily buy into this, but some have suggested that after suffering and proving our ourselves to God in an imperfect form, we would then "fully" appreciate a perfect incorruptible state when we receive it as our reward.

Cheers Artful

56

ADAM AND EVE CREATED SAME YEAR says Jehovah's channel:

by garybuss in

adam and eve created same year says jehovah's channel:.

insight book #1 p. 772 eve .

when adam was 130 years old, eve gave birth to a son whom she called seth, saying: "god has appointed another seed in place of abel, because cain killed him.

artful

Gary: There is a very strong allusion made to this idea in last weeks WT study (January 1, 2003 p18). After quoting Jesus words at Luke 12:40 "At an hour that you do not think likely the Son of man is coming." they go on to state: "We can derive another lesson from Jesus' illustration. Although the slaves did not know the hour when their master would arrive, apparently, they knew the night. It would be difficult to deep awake all that night if they thought that their master might come some other night. But no, they knew which night he was coming, and that gave them strong incentive to stay awake. In a rather similar way, Bible prophecies clearly reveal that we are living in the time of the end; but they do not tell us the day or the hour of the end itself."

Cheers Artful

4

Eternal Life through Jesus - When did it start?

by anti-absolutism in

ok this one might seem odd to some people... as christians, (i personally am not sure if i want to consider myself christian yet) is the belief that, since christ gave us the opportunity to have eternal life, or an immortal soul, that it was only after his death that we had the opportunity?

in other words did the people who died before his death not have the opprtunity and therefore are still just dead?.

your response is appreciated, as brief as possible, please.

artful

Good question - to offer a "brief" answer:

The scriptures teach that ALL (not only those who died "after" Christ) would be eligible for eternal life. For instance, Jesus specifically mentioned Abraham, Moses, and Elijah being present in the "Kingdom of God". Paul in Hebrews 11:13-16 also refers to the faithful men of old as having citizenship in the heavenly kingdom. Of course, all of these ones would have already died, so technically they would not have "everlasting life" until after their resurrection.

Cheers
Artful

18

When did Jesus become The Christ?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

the watchtower society says that jesus became "the christ" at his baptism: .

"holy spirit - the force behind the coming new order" book (1975), page 90: .

"when did this jesus become actually 'christ the lord'?

artful

Very good post UD!
Considering Jesus' pre-human existence, I could never understand this WTS theory. The scripture in 1 Cor 10 that Brummie mentions really helps solidify that Jesus was the Christ before birth. I was not aware of this NWT discrepancy (another one for the list!).

Your idea of the Logos being appointed by God as the Christ in Gen 3:15 makes a lot of sense. I have never thought of it in that way before, thanks for mentioning this idea.

Cheers
Artful

6

gentile times?

by l3gi0n in

luke 21:20-28 (niv) .

20"when you see being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

21then let those who are in flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

artful

Welcome to the board l3gi0n!

This is a very good question. First of all I don't buy into the whole "Gentile Times" chronology philosophy, but even if I did, as you point out, Jesus was very clearly stating that the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles, (aka "Gentile times") was to begin after Jerusalem's destruction (70CE). I guess if we are to buy into the WTS chronology theory, we should be looking for the "invisible return" of the Lord in and around 2590 AD! Hey, maybe this will be the next big "new light" prophecy! It would certainly buy the WTS some more time!!!

Thanks for bringing this up. This teaching makes no sense on so many levels!

Cheers
Artful

11

Gnostics

by joannadandy in

i am writing to the people on this board who are way smarter than i could ever hope to be, there are quite a few of you here, and have some understanding of religions.. i just picked up a book about gnostics.

mainly because the back cover talked about william blake (who i already knew was gnostic) and john lennon being holders of this philosophy.

it's supposedly a history of this religion/philosophy.. i am only half way through the first chapter...the author is rather full of himself and is constantly reminding the reader he went to oxford and subconciously knew of gnostic principles his whole life.

artful

metatron: from what I have read, I believe that John was opposed to the Gnostics because they taught that Christ had not "come in the flesh". The Gnostics felt that anything earthly was defective and inferior (including the "God" of the OT) and therefore claimed Jesus did not come in the flesh, but only allowed himself to appear human. John refered to such ones as anti-Christ. From what I understand, the Gnostics believed that they possessed a special knowledge which gave them unique insights into spiritual things (sound familiar!!).

Artful

5

Americans can view Fifth Estate Show at...........

by Beans in

attention, residents of the usa!

if you have directv you can see the cbc newsworld international broadcasts on directv channel 366 - nwi.

the 5th's estate's show times for the jw abuse issue is .

artful

It's OK...Scully just posted this in the thread above...

JANUARY 29 AT 9 P.M. ON CBC TELEVISION

Thanks
Artful

5

Americans can view Fifth Estate Show at...........

by Beans in

attention, residents of the usa!

if you have directv you can see the cbc newsworld international broadcasts on directv channel 366 - nwi.

the 5th's estate's show times for the jw abuse issue is .

artful

Thanks for the info Beans!

When is this show airing in Canada?

Thanks
Artful

23

Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake

by Tommy Boy in

i have been research the topic of how christ died and have read many articles (most interesting of them was at the url http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm) which indicate that he died on a cross, so i contacted the wt and they told me to look at vine's expository dictionary of new testament words, and this is what i found.

topic: cross, crucify

<a-1,noun,4716,stauros> .

artful

Below is a quote I had saved from a previous thread (I'm sorry, I don't remember who to credit for this) which discusses the the physical effects of hanging on a stake as compared to a cross. Basically a study in the '40s found that being suspended with your arms directly above your head (on a stake) would produce limited breathing capacity and asphyxiation within minutes. However, being suspended with arms outstretched (on a cross) one could breath comfortably for hours. Of course the Bible states that Jesus was alive for at least 3 hours, and those beside him for even longer.

Artful

_______
Austrian radiologist, Hermann Moedder, experimented with medical students in the 40's, hanging them by their wrists with their hands directly above their heads (much like the Watchtower pictures Jesus on a stake). In a few minutes, the students became pale, their lung capacity dropped from 5.2 to 1.5 liters, blood pressure decreased and the pulse rate increased. Moedder concluded that inability to breathe would occur in about six minutes if they were not allowed to stand and rest.

The same would apply to Christ, IF he were suspended on a stake as the Watchtower depicts him, hung from hands bound directly overhead. He would have suffocated in a matter of minutes.

Zugibe, however, discovered that if students were hung by hands outstretched to the side at 60-70 degrees, they would have no trouble breathing for hours on end. Since Luke 23:44 and Matthew 27:45,46 show that Christ was on the cross for about three hours, the evidence points again to death on a traditional cross.

159

Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped in

is jesus christ the same person as michael the archangel [chief angel], as the watchtower society teaches?

what does the bible say?

here are all of the scriptures that mention michael the archangel:.

artful

Very well summed up UD! I am going to copy this one to my files.

I agree with you that Jesus is certainly not Michael the archangel...
The Scripture in Rev 12 speaks of the angel Michael doing battle with Satan after Jesus had sat down at God's right hand. Surely, Jesus having ascended to the throne as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" would not be refered to as a lowly angel. And of course as you point out, the scriptures in Hebrews backs this up: Heb 1:5 says "For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"?

As with many of the WTS teachings, I fail to see any reason for them to propagate this lie...of what value is it to insist that Jesus is Michael?

Cheers
Artful

Edited by - artful on 23 January 2003 11:1:57