Posts by Athanasius

16

Know any cases from platform or audience of "apostate" remarks?

by Gregor in

since leaving, one of my fantasies (after hours on the platform in the old days) is making a well planned statement, starting out subtle and building it into an outright expose of wt doctrine.

it would have to be a specific subject, (1914 generation would be good) to keep it consise and simple.

i have seen a couple of "crackpot" situations where somebody yelled from the audience, but nothing very effective.

Athanasius

When I was the TM School overseer I once voiced guarded criticism of the NWT from the platform. We were discussing public reading, so I told the students to look up Esther 6:6, as this was part of the week's Bible reading. Then we read the verse in the NWT which says: "When Haman came in, the king proceeded to say to him: 'What is to be done to the man in whose honor the king himself has taken delight?'" I then asked the audience if that is the way they would normally express themselves. Not really, I said. Then I said that we would probably use expressions similar to those found in the Today's English Version Bible which translates the same verse this way: "So Haman came in, and the king said to him, 'There is someone I wish very much to honour. What should I do for this man?'" Next I mentioned that since the NWT isn't written the way we generally speak, that it is important that we really practice reading out loud before we give talk number 2, which at the time was the Bible reading.

So I was able to expose the woodeness of the NWT and the superiority of another Bible translation at the same time. But to protect my rear, make it appear as counsel on public reading.

7

A Question About The Kingdom Interlinear Translation

by FireNBandits in

i no longer have my 1969 edition kit (or 1985 for that matter), but i'm very curious as to how the literal english sublinear beneath the westcott and hort greek text translates the words "aion" and "aionios.

" the nwt usually idiotically translates as "system of things" when in actuality "aion" means "eon" or "age" and "aionios" means everlasting, eternal, and according to some translations such as young's literal and the concordant version "age lasting" and "eonian.

here are some verses to look up to let me know how the kit translates the above koine greek terms: matthew 13:39,40,49,28:20 .

Athanasius

It always felt awkward using the NWT when out in field service because of the peculiar expressions that it used. "System of things" being one of the NWT's strange phrases. Hebrews 1:2 is especially awkward as the NWT renders it: "has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things."

The New Jerusalem Bible translates the same verse using wording that easier understand: "in our time, the final days, he has spoken to us in the person of his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he made the ages."

I never could understand why Freddy Franz used "system of things" in place of "age" or "era." I guess because its a phrase unique to the JWs.

18

Peculiar NWT rendering: System of Things

by Athanasius in

this morning at church i read the new testament lesson, which was ephesians 1:15-23, from the new revised standard version bible.

verse 20-21 says:.

"god put this power to work in christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, (21) far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come.".

Athanasius

Hi Dinah. I agree with you. My mom is a JW and everytime she mentions "this old system of things," I also want to barf.

And, Dan the Man, you are so right. The NWT is a one man translation and thus reflects Freddy Franz's idiosyncrasies. Since Freddy ended his secular education in 1913 and thereafter led a cloistered life, his Bible version contains phrases and terminology that were common in the 1890s and early 1900s. For example 1 Timothy 6:18 NWT says: "To work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be liberal, ready to share." J. N. Darby, who completed his translation of the Bible in 1890 also uses the term "liberal" in verse 18. However, the New Revised Standard Version translates 1 Timothy 6:18: " They are to do good, to be rich in good works, generous, and ready to share." I don't know of a single modern English Bible version that uses "liberal" in place of "generous" in this verse. Another example is Daniel 4:14 where Freddy uses the word "boughs" where the NRSV and other modern language Bibles use "branches." The English language has changed a lot since 1890, but the problem with the NWT is that Freddy didn't adapt to the changing times.

Because of the awkwardness of the translation, I was embarrassed to use the NWT in the field service, prefering the New International Version and using the excuse that by using the NIV at the door the householder couldn't say we only use our own Bible.

18

Peculiar NWT rendering: System of Things

by Athanasius in

this morning at church i read the new testament lesson, which was ephesians 1:15-23, from the new revised standard version bible.

verse 20-21 says:.

"god put this power to work in christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, (21) far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come.".

Athanasius

This morning at church I read the New Testament lesson, which was Ephesians 1:15-23, from the New Revised Standard Version Bible. Verse 20-21 says:

"God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, (21) far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come."

Thirty years ago when giving public talks as a JW elder I read the same Scripture using the NWT, which renders verse 21 as: "far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named not only in this system of things, but also in that to come."

The Watchtower's peculiar rendering of the Greek word aion as "system of things," was always an embarrassment when I had to use the NWT when talking with non-JWs. Did "system of things" and other peculiar translations in the NWT irritate you too?

75

Your Opinion: Why Do Some JWs Come Here & Defend The Witnesses?

by minimus in

jw
friends

is it that they are masochists?.

they are already being disobedient to the "slave" by coming to these internet sites.. so, why do they do it??

?.

Athanasius

I get the impression from the hostile comments here that the Watchtower ripped some of you off big time. But thats not an excuse to turn your hostility toward individual JWs like Reniaa. During my 30 plus years in the JW religion the people who showed hostility just made me want to stay in the Watchtower because we were warned about persecution. However, it was the people who tried to kindly reason with me that made the best impression. I fondly remember an elderly Church of Christ elder who was a return visit of mine. I spent many hours trying to convince him to become a JW because I thought we had the "truth." Nevertheless, it was the objections that he raised, in a kindly manner, that got me to do research into the JW theology, research that led to my first doubts about the Watchtower being God's Channel. Though it took another 15 years before my final exit from the JWs, still it was the kind reasoning manner of this old gentleman that started me on the path to freedom.

The JWs who come here to witness, if treated kindly, may start doing some objective research into their own religion. Hopefully such research will make them more enlightened about God and the Watchtower.

47

Ran into the JW table at San Diego airport...

by Confession in

yes, my ladyfriend and i were entering the san diego airport for our flight home to phoenix late yesterday afternoon, when i noticed a forty-ish man and woman sitting down behind a table loaded with wts publications.

i stopped to glance over them with joy.

i made familiar comments about some of the publications, noting the newer soft covers and trying to casually engage the pair in conversation.

Athanasius

It seems to me that "witnessing" has become an empty ritual for most JWs. It is all about marking up time sheets with lots of hours spent doing nothing. In some religions they have rituals where one burns candles and incense. The JW ritual is to stand on a street corner holding the Watchtower magazine or knock on doors where nobody is home.

46

Have you met Governing Body members?

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

brother jaracz taught one day of my mts class, the very last day.

when i was in bethel i met brother schroeder, brother sydlik, barr, barry.

i said hi to brother franz once as a kid.. the new ones?

Athanasius

At a District Convention back in 1959 I met the Watchtower Oracle himself, Freddy Franz. From the platform he sounded like a real big man, but when I met him I was actually taller than he was and I was only 12 years old at the time.

In 1975, the year Armageddon happened, I met his eminence, Ted Jaracz. He had been invited by our Circuit to give a special talk. Our PO knew Jaracz and he asked me if I would like to meet "his eminence," so I said sure why not. Jaracz's talk was bland and uninspiring, nothing like Freddy Franz who could spin a good yarn. In person Jaracz was just as bland and uninspiring.

Years later in talking with Maximus I learned what a SOB Jaracz was and how he manipulated his way to the top of the Watchtower dictatorship.

12

The answer to the WT making more money

by horrible life in

jw
friends

advertisements and direct sales .

this is the answer to all the financial woes of the wt.

wanting more and more money from the rank and file, in these economic bad times, is like beating a dead horse.

Athanasius

Maybe the Watchtower should try this next year:

Wasn't it wonderful to learn at the 2009 Divine Illusion District Assemblies that all baptised JWs are now invited to partake of the emblems at the Memorial. To serve the needs of our brothers for the 2010 Memorial, the Society will make available special Watchtower Wine from Kingdom Farms; where each step of the winemaking process is supervised by a member of your Governing Body. The final product is blessed with a special prayer by our beloved Brother Jaracz. Watchtower Wine will be made available for a donation of $100.00 per two litre bottle. We suggest 10 bottles per 100 partakers.

Now some may reason that this expensive for red wine, but many brothers think nothing of spending $75.00 for a 3/4 litre bottle of French Champagne. Moreover, Watchtower wine is the only wine available that is blessed by your Governing Body. With this wonderful provision from Jehovah now available to all congregations of God's people, it would be improper to serve wine from worldly sources. Therefore, begining in January, each body of elders will need to ascertain the needs of their congregations and order accordingly.

Watchtower Matzos are also required for the Memorial. As with Watchtower Wine, every process of Matzo preparation and baking is closely supervised by a member of your Governing Body. Watchtower Matzos will be sent to your congregation for a $10.00 donation per box of 12. We suggest 10 boxes per 100 partakers.

113

BOE letter: "presiding overseer" becomes "coordinator of the body of elders

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

here's the text of the letter:.

christian congregation of jehovah's witnesses.

to all bodies of elders.

Athanasius

I think the Watchtower Corporation is trying to create the illusion of decentralization to protect their assets from lawsuits. Right now the CO controls patronage, in that he can veto the BOE's recommendations for elders and Mini Servants. With the replacement of CO's with local "coordinating elders," BOE's will have more control over patronage. Since the local Coordinator will no doubt be an unpaid volunteer, it may become easy for the ambitious to grease his palm. Where the CO might have been more principled in these situations because of their direct ties to Watchtower Corporate headquarters, the local unpaid volunteer might not have the scruples to resist monetary compensation for his recommendations. Think of the havoc this will create for the rank and file. In the long run this scheme may backfire big time for the Watchtower Corporation.

10

Is the WTS. controlled by Satan the Devil in view of what its done ?

by Homerovah the Almighty in

Athanasius

Interesting question Homer. Back in the early 1970s when the Watchtower started the special tract work, it was Kingdom News something and we were required to distribute a tract to everyone in our congregation's territory in just two weeks. At the time I was young and didn't know the truth about the "Truth." Anyway I was out the the field service and I gave a tact to this older gentleman, and he starts thumbing through it and notes that it is printed by the Watchtower. So he says: "Watchtower! The Devil's warehouse." Then he gives the tract back to me. Ten years later, after reading Crisis of Conscience and other books exposing the JWs, I realized that the old guy was right.