Posts by Axelspeed

28

Why WTS Wants A Young Girl To Die

by metatron in

jw
friends

here we have a paradox - a mystery on which a life hangs.. the society dumped their new blood cards.

they write ambiguous replies to "questions from.

readers" about what blood products can or can't be taken.

Axelspeed

As Lee suggested, I believe the culmination of events leads to the fact that we are in the midst of a backing away from the policy, hoping that the rank and file do not notice.

If you notice in the Jenson correspondence he quoted from the United in Worship book p.149, "So there was not an imposing on Gentile Christians of a responsibility to conform to the Mosaic Law or some portion of it but, rather, there was a confirming of standards recognized prior to Moses" in making the argument that the apostolic decree referred directly back to the law to Noah, which would not place a definitive restriction on transfusions.

That is found in Chapter 19 of the United in Worship book. Coincidentally, if you place the new Worship the Only True God book (which contains 21 chapters) and the United in Worship book (which contains 24 chapters) side by side, you will notice that all titles of the chapters are the same except for the 3 chapters that are missing from the new release. What are those missing chapters?

Chapter 14-- I Make a Covenant With You for a Kingdom
Chapter 19-- What the Mosaic Law Means to You (the chapter quoted from above)
Chapter 20-- Life and Blood- Do You Treat Them as Sacred

Since the new book is to replace the United book, thus making it obsolete; and combining this with the new blood card discarding incident ...hmmm....

Edited by - Axelspeed on 20 June 2002 17:19:49

2

the women are a large army

by Axelspeed in

jw
friends

i initially had reservations about how this would impact the r&f, thinking that most of the effects would be felt at the door.

the morning after i have a little different perspective.

based on my observations from last night's meeting, this may be only the tip of the iceberg.

Axelspeed

I initially had reservations about how this would impact the r&f, thinking that most of the effects would be felt at the door.

The morning after I have a little different perspective. Based on my observations from last night's meeting, this may be only the tip of the iceberg. First of all we have a 7:30 meeting, the show aired here at 7. So many including me caught the first 15 minutes or so and had the vcr running to see the rest and again after the meeting.

My observations. Many were missing, meaning that more than I realized probably knew about it. I went to keep apearances myself (to elude the thought police, my reference to George Orwell's 1984 )
Most of those missing were sisters, most notably, including many of the elders wives. It was so obviously strange to see these brothers sitting alone this night.

This might mean several things. 1)They were affected too much by what they saw in the first few minutes of the show
to even make a showing to keep appearances. 2) they were determined to see the program in spite of...

Whatever the case, this show made a connection with many sisters (although I am sure some brothers have been victims also). I believe the connection was so much so, that I wonder how many of them have remained silent over the years, and could not hold their emotions any longer as they know the truth of the situation in their own lives. A couple of the comments after the meeting expressed genuine confusion about the whole policy and are probably wondering "what do the elders know and when did they know it". The WTS may have a firewall between them and the elders (no written indication of guidance or influence from HQ). But as far as the elders and possible liability, I would be thinking very soberly on the situation at this point.

Once the rumor mill picks up steam and more stories come to light, ...the "women are a large" army may have a new meaning.

20

Bowen Disfellowshipping/Daramsala Salt Works

by Francois in

jw
friends

bill bowen's disfellowshipping is very likely to have the same effect as the attack, by british and conscripted indian forces, on gandhi's followers who attempted to close the daramsala salt works.

this event marked the end of the british raj in india - even though the brits stayed in nominal power a couple more years.

the unprincipled and immoral attack upon unarmed demonstrators showed the world the utter lack of ethics and morals of the the british lording it over someone else in their own home.. likewise, the jw attacks, disfellowshipping of people who attempt to protect the most defenseless, the most helpless, the most innocent members of our society, is a carbon-copy of the arrogance of the british raj in india - and at the salt works that fateful day.. these disfellowshippings will demonstrate to the world the complete moral degeneracy of the watchtower bible and tract society.

Axelspeed

quote-

"Could you point to the publication that says that all members of JWs are perfect human beings? Didn't think so... Isreal was guided by God, did they have problems? The first Christian congregation was guided by God, did they have problems?"

-end quote.

One thing you don't acknowledge is that, according to WT both of these organizations eithered turned bad or were corrupted over time. For instance, take Israel,...they saw all the miracles and deliverences, and so one would believe, had unmistakable evidence that they were "God's chosen". The "rank and file" therefore had no reason to question the religious leaders, in fact to do so might mean your life.

When Christ appeared the Jewish religious leaders warned all against following under threat of expulsion ie. disfellowshipping and were thrown out of the synagogue. For them, this meant not only religious, but economic and social ramifications much more severe than even the JW now faces, as at that time the whole nation, thus ALL your ties were "chosen".

Obviously for any to become a Christian, from a Jew's standpoint they would have to become "apostate" from an organization that they knew was (at one time at least) undeniably "God's chosen".

They were faced inevitably faced with a Crisis of Conscience.

"Do I follow the religious leaders, the priest, no matter how faulty or imperfect... because these are God's people? Should I stay with it as a test of loyalty? We do have the law of Moses...you know. Would God punish me for just following instructions from his chosen?"

or

"Do I take a chance...in spite of what the leaders, my family, my friends, and everything I have ever been taught says? and listen to this Jesus guy?"

Obviously to blindly follow the first line of reasoning would mean that no one would convert to Christianity (ie apostasize from Judaism).

For those that did convert or turn apostate would mean that they did not listen to the "channel of communication that God is using" and/or did not see that their dedication "requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings" as taught by their spiritual leaders at that particular time, to use a WT phrase....and were thus "promptly expelled."

You also mentioned about the first century cong. This same argument more or less still applies...as any organization can theoretically say "we are the chosen, and if there are errors, wait for God to straigten it out".

If you followed that line you should still be in whatever religion you started in.

As a side note, however this plays out, I find it very "sad" and utterly unbeleivable that it has come to this. Especially since at one time I truly felt it could do no wrong.

Just wanted to reply in JW-speak.

-just my 2

22

Blood Policy

by cyrano in

jw
friends

i think the old men at brooklyn are in a bind when it comes to the blood policy.

so many jws have lost their lives from this policy that if the borg suddenly did a 180 and allowed transfusions, there would be thousands of mad family members asking too many questions and probably too many law suits.. i think they know it's a dumb-ass policy but their overpaid lawyers are probably telling them to stick with it to avoid massive class-action suits.

like everything else in brooklyn, the all-mighty dollar has the final word.

Axelspeed

"don't ask, don't tell", "a line thru the part of the
Flock book that lists "failure to abstain from blood" as
grounds for df'ing". (by the way, I do enjoy reading you guys posts) In this case, I beg to differ. No disrespect to other issues, but I really think this will be the big issue.

Even if one has not lost a loved one most will look at the "directive card", take a good look at their kids, and wonder "what if" and realize how they were just one accident away from perhaps sacrificing their children over vaccilating policy that was once presented vehemently as dogma and in fact fought tooth and nail for in the courts...against the wishes of family in many cases.

8

A Silent Majority Of Doubters Hanging In There?

by Englishman in

jw
friends

in the thread about racism, ozzy said the following:.

so your point of view, if expressed in oz, would be considered risque, not politically correct.

the silly thing is that privately most would agree with you.

Axelspeed

Some good thoughts here. I can only say that through conversing with some, to say that there are doubts is an understatement. Especially when it comes from persons I was certain were hardcore and are considered pillars by most. Just ask about the "stinging locusts" or the "two witnesses" or similar interps. or dogma "unique" to jw that are to be strictly accepted without question as unchanging truth. (because the real truth obviously never changes...right. ;))

Many know there are valid questions and contradictions but the question "where shall we go?" is the response, and this I believe is not always so much a "spiritual" response as was originally asked, but just as much an emotional one, having to do with life-long ties and associations (moreso when up in years and one's whole social structure is jw).

59

I'm Not Effective Here

by Farkel in

i know this and i've known this for a pretty long time.. sorry to youse who want to receive a different message than what i offer.

you will get what you want from those who give you what you want.

i have no problem with that.. there is a place for me to play.

Axelspeed

Fark, I agree with Path, there is an audience, but probably a less vocal and lurking one at this point. I do look for your post as I usually get something from them. And I do see the sincere, and forgive me, soft (lol!) side of what many probably see as abrasive posts.

As far as the many of the other topics on board, if they don't appeal to me, I don't post, simple as that. This is not to make a judgement on those who do, as I realize that all are at different points in xjw-dom. Unfortunately, I'm just not yet at the point yet to post fluff. For one thing, i'm wouldn't be that good at it, as most of my "sense of humor" and play, was for lack of a better term, whacked out of me as a child in a strict jw home. And two, rightly or wrongly, unfortunately at this point I still take this stuff seriously, probably too seriously....but i'm working on it. Seeing the fluff gives me something to aspire to!

But back to the point, I am sure there is an audience for the Farkels and AlanFs,etc. I just hope they look far enough past the post that might be too much for the newbie ( that the jw mentality might feel guilt over & that wt warned them about "those apostates" ) to be able to get to the point many on this board are at. (unfortunately...not me yet)

47

I called Patterson today.

by Mulan in

jw
friends

someone please post a phone number where i can call the wts.

will explain later.

i guess i need the service desk.

Axelspeed

[quote]

Notice how they quick they are to sell out the local elders? Brooklyn's (or, currently Patterson's) condescending attitude seems implicit to me: `Oh, those locals... tch, tch; if only they would pay more attention to what we've published and apply the counsel they're given with balance..they're so heavy-handed!''

[\quote]

Could not have said it better. When the info to elders serving on JCs and how they should be handled with regard to not making "written reference to direction from Society", thus implying a connection, ...definite flag.

Life is already complicated enough without extra worries about being left holding the bag.

9

Let Me Refresh You Or GET THE HELL OUT!

by Mister Biggs in

i was sitting at the meeting last night looking for more things to be critical about (lol!)..

the year text is "come to me...and i will refresh you"-matthew 11:28. as i was staring at the text as it hung on the wall, i looked over at a married teenage couple who were disfellowhipped for "poking" prior to marriage.. okay, they had sex before marriage.

but they did get married.

Axelspeed

so true

[quote] The year text is "Come to me...and I will refresh you"-Matthew 11:28 [\quote]

Every time I sit there and that text is staring me in the face, the contradictions become more and more obvious to me too...especially as I listen to what is being from the platform, while at the same time looking around and seeing the ACTUAL REALITY of the state of affairs.

A lot like the what going thru the Greatest Man (for what...like 5 times...seemed anyway) did to open my eyes. That book...did a lot to hlight for me the contradictions/double standards/pharisaical attitude...sorta like shooting yourself in the foot.

31

WTS says you are free to do what we tell you

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

the may 15 issue of the watchtower contains a discussion of the question: would it be advisable for a true christian to attend a funeral or a wedding in a church?.

the tone of the wts view is set in the very first line our taking part in any form of false religion is displeasing to jehovah and must be avoided.

nonetheless the last line of the article states whatever the situation, the christian should make sure that the decision will not interfere with his preserving a good conscience before god and men.. so apparently it's a personal decision for the jw as to whether he/she will attend a funeral in a church or not.

Axelspeed

I believe its a case of you are free to "follow your conscience", but if you are "spiritually mature" you will be alert to follow the "leanings" of the WTS.

Can't tell you how many times I've heard that phrase and the question, "Which way is the slave LEANING?"...Can't you just feel the "refreshment" of the yoke?

161

I've been studying for about a year now...

by Meow921 in

i've been studying with the jw's for about a year now.

i know that by nature (or nurture!

) i have an addictive personality so i have tried to be real careful that i'm doing the right thing by getting involved with them.

Axelspeed

Meow

Can't really add anything. But the crux of the matter was well stated by bj:
______________________________________________________________________

"Question par. #8:

What does attaining "oneness" in the faith and accurate knowledge require?

Paragraph #8:

"First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in UNITY and FULL HARMONY with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. HE DOES NOT ADVOCATE OR INSIST ON PERSONAL OPINIONS OR HARBOR PRIVATE IDEAS WHEN IT COMES TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, AND "THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE."

Do you understand what these above words mean?

You must not "HARBOR PRIVATE IDEAS"

explicitly shows this goes deep. Deep within a person's conscience and personal being. This shows, he may not even tell ANYONE about this. Because he is "harboring private ideas", to himself! When someone "harbors" something, he is keeping it to himself. It is a very private thought, or idea. He can only "HARBOR" something, within himself. Within his person. Is this not true?

So, you cannot even "harbor" thoughts, personal thoughts that DISAGREE with the WTS' teachings. That's what the above statement is saying. You must not think, nor "harbor" any thoughts against the WTS' teachings! You cannot even hold within yourself, any "private ideas" or "personal opinions" on biblical matters. That's if they are different from "WATCHTOWER UNDERSTANDING". That's apostasy,..."
______________________________________________________________________

In other words, although you have been encouraged to examine and investigate now, check that at the door once in.

Most could take a lot of things, including errors as a result of good intentions. But to give up to right to think?....If you don't have that what do you have?

Suppose the organization you are affiliated with now (if you are) made this same request...theoretically (sp?) you would not be able to do the studying you now are without being considered a heretic and apostate, right?

As for YouKnow and whatever arguments he is now making.. Bottom Line: He is in DIRECT VIOLATION of WT policy by asserting and HARBORING his own OPINION that it is ok to even be here,...he knows it,...and so would you.
___________________________________________________________________
seven006 stated:

Some times, some people, just need to experience things for themselves before they completely understand what others have tried to explain. That's life.
____________________________________________________________________

very true.

just my 2