Posts by Axelspeed

25

Do you think its talking down to you?

by WildTurkey in

jw
friends

when talking to someone who never was a jw, and they say to you how could you ever fall for all that?

it does bother me, cause i think it is some what condescending?

how do you feel about these questions?

Axelspeed

Even though it sounds insensitive, I don't frown at the question, mainly because I ask myself the very same question all the time. Once you're out and see things in hindsight it is a question that many ask. Even now when talking to one's still in I want to ask "how can you fall for this, open your eyes", but when you don't know, you don't know. And most of us have been there.

Since I was raised in it, I used to always ask persons "what attracted you to the 'Truth'." I wanted to know what was the appeal for them, because I wondered if I would have taken that path and been attracted to the message had I not been raised in it. I think that even at that time, when I was a True Believer, I couldn't really see what it was that was so wonderful to make a person make that kind of change to become one of us. (I did notice though that it usually attracted persons at a critical time) To justify this in my own mind I just assumed that because everyone else thought it was great, it must somehow be. And since everyone said how happy they were, I assumed they were, and so I must be also, even if... you get the point.

To answer your question, no. I can see how it can be taken that way, but I don't. It's just one of those things "you just had to be there" sort of things. Sort of like telling a joke that is funny at the time and in the context of the moment, but is not funny, in fact it is silly, and you wonder how you ever thought it was funny. Until you remember the context of the moment.

181

Bill Bowen's Comments on Ray Franz

by silentlambs in

jw
friends

i wish them peace.

at the end of the conversation i did not feel we were in agreement.

for similar reasons i believe ray has not supported the issue of child abuse being a problem in the organization to media and by personal comments to persons who ask him privately about this.

Axelspeed

I have little to add to this. I have my own thoughts on this whole thing, and I am content to let them (for the most part) remain my own thoughts. I would like to say a though that I think your last comments were all that many were asking for...a rational explanation in a tone that was not judgemental of the motives of the persons asking.

Unfortunately, the first impression we get of each other here is by our words presented here. And so rightly or wrongly, a perception is formed about us as individuals, no matter how noble our efforts are or the cause is.

It is with that in mind that I would humbly make the suggestion to perhaps curtail escapades of peeling out in parking lots. The fact is I just was not expecting it. Not because of the many years you served and what capacity you served, and for 40 yrs. was it? No, but just the fact that life experience matures us to the point where we for the most part move past this kind of stuff. It has nothing to do with the cause, I know, but unfortunately perceptions are made and formed by our words.

I wish you the best.

44

Former Elders Please Check IN

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

i noticed quite a few former elders commenting on the thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=37801&site=3&page=1

i thought it was amusing that about 20 percent of the bethelites in my department at bethel have left the organization.

Axelspeed

yep. 12yrs.

64

Help a lurking dub with doubts

by undercover in

i've been lurking about, checking out some of the evidence against the wtbs.

i am currently inactive but still an approved/baptized member.

i have seen all the 1914/607bce evidence; the blood transfusion quandry evidence; the current child abuse problem evidence and several other things that are damning to the wt doctrines.

Axelspeed

You are not alone. Many are confronted with many of those same questions. I too, do not believe in a "conspiracy theory". I know far too many, who I know are good and caring people, to believe in some widespread conspiracy. I believe in is much more a case of "victims of victims" as described in COC. Many of the nagging questions that you may have always had, but didn't know who could be trusted to ask (in confidence)are probably addressed. The other book ISOCF goes further, and even gets into argumentation and manipulation. But even here, instead of revealing a blatant maliciousness, it speaks more to a "victims of victims" mentality being pervasive, not only at the bottom, but even the top.

So much has gone into preserving the life and image of the org, preserving the mentality that it must be fed at ALL cost, that the whole idea it has taken on a life of its own--an Orwellian 1984ish one where to even hint at question or dissent will, be met with charges of heresy. And so out of fear of not appearing to be "into it enough", doubts are suppressed, cognitive dissonance is applied, and life goes on. This is a fear that not only applies to the r/f, but even at the higher levels it acts as a muzzle, lest one find himself another ousted R. Franz. This is not so much about individuals, but rather a system that now finds itself practically landlocked. Change would be difficult, at best, in an environment of fear, where a one does not know who to turn to or trust/ confide in even if they desired to make a plea for constructive change in a certain area. I think Orwell's 1984 illustrates it well.

As mentioned above Hoffer's True Believer is a good book and does a good job of explaining the phenomenon that fuels mass movements. Hassan's cult books are also good. A good piece of advice is to read, read, read. Also some college courses on history, religious history (things like the Protestant Revolution)in particular, would be good. It will put a lot of perspective on a probably mainly JW world that many, including myself have grown up in, and illustrate what a blip on the screen it really is.

Edited by - Axelspeed on 25 September 2002 17:5:6

15

What Would I Have Done?

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

in reading the gospels about jesus ministry i cannot help but be moved by his message and manner and i know i am not alone in feeling like this.

i marvel, smile, and slowly shake my head as i read about the miracles that he performed and have, at one time or other, wished that i could have been there to witness those marvels and to hear his voice.

perhaps like many others i have also wondered at those people who heard him and yet walked away.

Axelspeed

Excellent post. You worded my thoughts exactly! I have thought on that very scenario many times; and each time I realize just how revolutionary Jesus was and how pioneering the first Christians ( er...apostates ) were.

15

New WT Books Highlights...

by MrMoe in

jw
friends

i have copies of the 2 newest books released at the latest convention... .

"worship the only true god," .

"draw close to jehovah.

Axelspeed

These are the 'Table of Contents' of the 2 pubs. The second set is from the new book. The chapters in bold in the first set are the ones missing in the new book. In a couple of chapters there are also slight changes in wording.

United in Worsip of the Only True God

Unity in Worship--What Should It Mean for You?
Magnify Jehovah as the True God
Keep a Firm Grip on the Word of God
The One to Whom All The Prophets Bore Witness
Freedom Enjoyed by Worshipers of Jehovah
The Issue That All Creation Has to Face
What We Learn From God's Permission of Evil
'Wrestling Against Wicked Spirit Forces'
Power of the Resurrection Hope
A Kingdom "That Will Not Be Brought to Ruin"
'Keep On Seeking First the Kingdom'
The Meaning of Your Baptism
A Great Crowd Before Jehovah's Throne
'I Make a Covenant With You for a Kingdom'
How Does Jehovah Direct His Organization?
Listen to Counsel, Accept Discipline
"Have Intense Love for One Another"
We Need to Practice Godly Devotion at Home
What the Mosaic Law Means to You
Life and Blood--Do You Treat Them as Sacred?
"They Are No Part of the World"
Continue to Speak God's Word With Boldness
Keep Close in Mind Jehovah's Day
Jehovah's Pirpose Attains Glorious Success

Worship the Only True God

Unity of Worship in Our Time--What Does It Mean?
Magnify Jehovah as the True God
Keep a Firm Grip on the Word of God
The One to Whom All The Prophets Bore Witness
Freedom Enjoyed by Worshipers of Jehovah
The Issue That All Creation Has to Face
What We Learn From God's Permission of Wickedness
'Wrestling Against Wicked Spirit Forces'
The Power of the Resurrection Hope
A Kingdom "That Will Never Be Brought to Ruin"
'Keep On Seeking First the Kingdom'
The Meaning of Your Baptism
A Great Crowd Before Jehovah's Throne
How Does Jehovah Direct His Organization?
Listen to Counsel, Accept Discipline
"Have Intense Love for One Another"
Practice Godly Devotion at Home
"They Are No Part of the World"
Continue to Speak God's Word With Boldness
Keep Close in Mind Jehovah's Day
Jehovah's Purpose Attains Glorious Success

Edited to make correction-- "Unity in Worship in Our Time--What Does It Mean?" corrected to read "Unity of Worship in Our Time--What Does It Mean?"

Edited by - Axelspeed on 1 July 2002 21:3:52

28

Why WTS Wants A Young Girl To Die

by metatron in

jw
friends

here we have a paradox - a mystery on which a life hangs.. the society dumped their new blood cards.

they write ambiguous replies to "questions from.

readers" about what blood products can or can't be taken.

Axelspeed

As Lee suggested, I believe the culmination of events leads to the fact that we are in the midst of a backing away from the policy, hoping that the rank and file do not notice.

If you notice in the Jenson correspondence he quoted from the United in Worship book p.149, "So there was not an imposing on Gentile Christians of a responsibility to conform to the Mosaic Law or some portion of it but, rather, there was a confirming of standards recognized prior to Moses" in making the argument that the apostolic decree referred directly back to the law to Noah, which would not place a definitive restriction on transfusions.

That is found in Chapter 19 of the United in Worship book. Coincidentally, if you place the new Worship the Only True God book (which contains 21 chapters) and the United in Worship book (which contains 24 chapters) side by side, you will notice that all titles of the chapters are the same except for the 3 chapters that are missing from the new release. What are those missing chapters?

Chapter 14-- I Make a Covenant With You for a Kingdom
Chapter 19-- What the Mosaic Law Means to You (the chapter quoted from above)
Chapter 20-- Life and Blood- Do You Treat Them as Sacred

Since the new book is to replace the United book, thus making it obsolete; and combining this with the new blood card discarding incident ...hmmm....

Edited by - Axelspeed on 20 June 2002 17:19:49

2

the women are a large army

by Axelspeed in

jw
friends

i initially had reservations about how this would impact the r&f, thinking that most of the effects would be felt at the door.

the morning after i have a little different perspective.

based on my observations from last night's meeting, this may be only the tip of the iceberg.

Axelspeed

I initially had reservations about how this would impact the r&f, thinking that most of the effects would be felt at the door.

The morning after I have a little different perspective. Based on my observations from last night's meeting, this may be only the tip of the iceberg. First of all we have a 7:30 meeting, the show aired here at 7. So many including me caught the first 15 minutes or so and had the vcr running to see the rest and again after the meeting.

My observations. Many were missing, meaning that more than I realized probably knew about it. I went to keep apearances myself (to elude the thought police, my reference to George Orwell's 1984 )
Most of those missing were sisters, most notably, including many of the elders wives. It was so obviously strange to see these brothers sitting alone this night.

This might mean several things. 1)They were affected too much by what they saw in the first few minutes of the show
to even make a showing to keep appearances. 2) they were determined to see the program in spite of...

Whatever the case, this show made a connection with many sisters (although I am sure some brothers have been victims also). I believe the connection was so much so, that I wonder how many of them have remained silent over the years, and could not hold their emotions any longer as they know the truth of the situation in their own lives. A couple of the comments after the meeting expressed genuine confusion about the whole policy and are probably wondering "what do the elders know and when did they know it". The WTS may have a firewall between them and the elders (no written indication of guidance or influence from HQ). But as far as the elders and possible liability, I would be thinking very soberly on the situation at this point.

Once the rumor mill picks up steam and more stories come to light, ...the "women are a large" army may have a new meaning.

20

Bowen Disfellowshipping/Daramsala Salt Works

by Francois in

jw
friends

bill bowen's disfellowshipping is very likely to have the same effect as the attack, by british and conscripted indian forces, on gandhi's followers who attempted to close the daramsala salt works.

this event marked the end of the british raj in india - even though the brits stayed in nominal power a couple more years.

the unprincipled and immoral attack upon unarmed demonstrators showed the world the utter lack of ethics and morals of the the british lording it over someone else in their own home.. likewise, the jw attacks, disfellowshipping of people who attempt to protect the most defenseless, the most helpless, the most innocent members of our society, is a carbon-copy of the arrogance of the british raj in india - and at the salt works that fateful day.. these disfellowshippings will demonstrate to the world the complete moral degeneracy of the watchtower bible and tract society.

Axelspeed

quote-

"Could you point to the publication that says that all members of JWs are perfect human beings? Didn't think so... Isreal was guided by God, did they have problems? The first Christian congregation was guided by God, did they have problems?"

-end quote.

One thing you don't acknowledge is that, according to WT both of these organizations eithered turned bad or were corrupted over time. For instance, take Israel,...they saw all the miracles and deliverences, and so one would believe, had unmistakable evidence that they were "God's chosen". The "rank and file" therefore had no reason to question the religious leaders, in fact to do so might mean your life.

When Christ appeared the Jewish religious leaders warned all against following under threat of expulsion ie. disfellowshipping and were thrown out of the synagogue. For them, this meant not only religious, but economic and social ramifications much more severe than even the JW now faces, as at that time the whole nation, thus ALL your ties were "chosen".

Obviously for any to become a Christian, from a Jew's standpoint they would have to become "apostate" from an organization that they knew was (at one time at least) undeniably "God's chosen".

They were faced inevitably faced with a Crisis of Conscience.

"Do I follow the religious leaders, the priest, no matter how faulty or imperfect... because these are God's people? Should I stay with it as a test of loyalty? We do have the law of Moses...you know. Would God punish me for just following instructions from his chosen?"

or

"Do I take a chance...in spite of what the leaders, my family, my friends, and everything I have ever been taught says? and listen to this Jesus guy?"

Obviously to blindly follow the first line of reasoning would mean that no one would convert to Christianity (ie apostasize from Judaism).

For those that did convert or turn apostate would mean that they did not listen to the "channel of communication that God is using" and/or did not see that their dedication "requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings" as taught by their spiritual leaders at that particular time, to use a WT phrase....and were thus "promptly expelled."

You also mentioned about the first century cong. This same argument more or less still applies...as any organization can theoretically say "we are the chosen, and if there are errors, wait for God to straigten it out".

If you followed that line you should still be in whatever religion you started in.

As a side note, however this plays out, I find it very "sad" and utterly unbeleivable that it has come to this. Especially since at one time I truly felt it could do no wrong.

Just wanted to reply in JW-speak.

-just my 2

22

Blood Policy

by cyrano in

jw
friends

i think the old men at brooklyn are in a bind when it comes to the blood policy.

so many jws have lost their lives from this policy that if the borg suddenly did a 180 and allowed transfusions, there would be thousands of mad family members asking too many questions and probably too many law suits.. i think they know it's a dumb-ass policy but their overpaid lawyers are probably telling them to stick with it to avoid massive class-action suits.

like everything else in brooklyn, the all-mighty dollar has the final word.

Axelspeed

"don't ask, don't tell", "a line thru the part of the
Flock book that lists "failure to abstain from blood" as
grounds for df'ing". (by the way, I do enjoy reading you guys posts) In this case, I beg to differ. No disrespect to other issues, but I really think this will be the big issue.

Even if one has not lost a loved one most will look at the "directive card", take a good look at their kids, and wonder "what if" and realize how they were just one accident away from perhaps sacrificing their children over vaccilating policy that was once presented vehemently as dogma and in fact fought tooth and nail for in the courts...against the wishes of family in many cases.