Thanks for this info. It will be interesting to see whether they put together the partial results as reported by KM to get exactly the same results as you got.
What I'm really looking forward to is the 2005 annual report - the first one I'm not going to conrtibute to. :)).
Pole - of the "no longer a publisher" class
Posts by Pole
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28Preliminary US service report for 2004 - based on KM figures (0% increase)
by truthseeker inbelow are prelimiary figures for the 2004 service year, based on numbers given in the "our kingdom ministry" magazine.
publishers
(inc. pioneers) baptized
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Pole
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Perfection
by Deputy Dog inperfection
after a discussion with a couple of current jws, it's come to my attention that my conception of perfection in "the kingdom" is very different from theirs.
on pages 188 & 189 of the knowledge book, we see the society's (or artist's) conception.
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Pole
Gumby's dead right.
The life of a witness is short and uncertain. Obey, obey, obey, and perhpas WTS leaders (then as Christ's heavenly brothers) will save you when they execute judgment on this wicked System of Things.
Or as the ol' Zephaniah puts it:
3 Seek the LORD , all you humble of the land,
you who do what he commands.
Seek righteousness, seek humility;
perhaps you will be sheltered
on the day of the LORD's anger.
As for perfection, of course only Christs heavenly brothers can have it in entirety.
Pole -
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John 18 Quid est veritas? - Who was right: Pilate or Jesus?
by Pole init's a doctrinal question.
of course the gospel of john may have been written by someone who made this conversation up.
but let's assume it really did take place between pilate and jesus christ.. john 1837"you are a king, then!
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Pole
It's a doctrinal question. Of course the Gospel of John may have been written by someone who made this conversation up. But let's assume it really did take place between Pilate and Jesus Christ.
John 18
37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."38"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him.
Let's also assume for the sake of the discussion that the usual interpretation of the passage is correct: Pilate is a relativist doubter and Jesus acts as the holder of the only revealed truths available in the entire Universe.
I remember when I was an active JW, I used this passage to make my doubts of relativist/soliptic nature go away. I used to think "Ha, aren't I showing Pilate's attitude?" Because I thought it a very sinful thing to do, such an "explanation" would do for me for some time.
When I was finally able to consider religious issues myself rather than accept ready-made answers, I began to think: "Yes, I'm showing "Pilate's attitude" and it's pretty much in accordance with my feelings."
My question: How many of you are ready to take Pilate's side? Sounds blasphemous, but if you had been in Pilate's shoes would you have given a similar reply? Or do you still believe in divinely revealed truths, and you are still "on the side of the truth" as Jesus put it?
Pole
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Reasons To Be Faithful - Part 2.
by Englishman inpart 1.. because, if you are unfaithful to your spouse and embark on an adulterous affair, you will incur the wrath of jehovah which will lead to you being disfellowshipped and ultimately being slain by his hand at armageddon.. part 2.. you would never do such a thing because you love your partner too much.. ..and therein lies the rub.. i've known many newbie-ex's who have played around once they've decided to leave the jw's.
in many cases it was because they hadn't even thought about part 2 above.
part 1 was such a dominating factor that when they left they abandoned that belief.
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Pole
Great point Englishman.
It shows that at least parts of WTS morality are based on lies, and however powerful they are, they only work for some people for some time (I'm sure even many active JWs don't believe in them).
Living for a doctrine turns you into an emotional monster who is 100% convinced of his/her rightousness and for whom people are only of secondary importance. -
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noah and da flood
by el jarocho mayor inso i have dis question..... as a kid growing up jw..i was always told dat da big j in da sky was da one dat created all living things on earth.
dat they were perfectly created and wit specif functions and all.
so, can anybody tell me whats up with the polar bear, and for dat matter any animal dat lives in da north or south pole?
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Pole
gumby,
Next time I go to the zoo, I'll remember your revealing words. Man, what a bright mind you have!!! :)))
You only forgot to mention that because of the flood all people originate from Noah, who was a prince of the Solomonic Dynasty and whose real name was Emmanuel. Thus we all share some Shemitic characteristics, right? Or did I get the chronology wrong? Oh well.
Ethiopia yesterday, today and FORIVER!
Pole
Edited to say hi to el jarocho mayor. -
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Do believers and unbelievers benefit from each other?
by Narkissos ini was thinking of this today.
we all live in religiously divided societies: in france unbelievers are probably the majority, in the us believers are.
but the minority in both cases is still influential.
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Pole
Czar,
You've raised an interesting issue. I think there is a problem with every ideology which is meant to be universally accepted by a large group of people with little or no room for variation from one individual to another. Oftentimes seemingly opposite ideologies only differ in terms of their propaganda language.
Many right-wing "christian" parties in Europe are strongly against abortion, which is supported by the left wingers. But when it comes to death penalty it is the socialists who are much more in favour of "life-protection" than the coservatives. So who's more pro-life?
Basically every mass-ideology has to cater for both the sane and the insane needs of its supporters.
Most ideologies are an art of finding the most intricate and non-sensical common denominators which could be accepted by a possible large group of people who are too lazy or too stipd to think for themselves. As such they're doomed to failure they take their ready-made ideologies seriously.
Pole -
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What makes a cult a "cult"?
by XQsThaiPoes inwhen does a high control group cross the line bettween being socially acceptable to being a "cult"?.
why do the marines or dod or cia earn special pleading to exempt them from being a "cult" when they seem to have most of the signs of being a cult.
is it simply the notion that theoretically they should be protecting our interest.
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Pole
XQ,
Well, that's precisely my point. Imeant the CC as it is now and the CIA as it is now. Jws have still a long way to go before they become as mainstream as the CC. 500 years you said :)? Well, things change more rapidly in modern information societies, so I'd give them 50 years. As it is now, they're still cultish. Hypocritical, illogical, preposterous, helpless, and seemingly mainstream in many respects? Yes, but they have a few nasty areas, such as shunning, blood, etc. -
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Do believers and unbelievers benefit from each other?
by Narkissos ini was thinking of this today.
we all live in religiously divided societies: in france unbelievers are probably the majority, in the us believers are.
but the minority in both cases is still influential.
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Pole
I think I've said it before on this forum somewhere, but what counts for me is not what people believe but how they came to believe in one thing or another.
If I meet an atheist who has always been an atheist and never gave any thought to the issue, then I can't find the belief system of such a person interesting, even though I'm pretty much in agreement with his/her final conclusions (also an atheist).
If on the other hand I meet a believer whose belief system has developed gradually and who has seriously considered a number of "options" then even if we are in disagreement I do enjoy having discussions with the person. Otherwise than having a nice chat how else can you "benefit"?
At the end of the day I tend to think I'm the one who's right :))), but we usually reach a stage at which we realize it doen't matter a thing what we believe.
I've met a few believers recently that I benefitted from in this way. I think they were LittleToe type of believers if I were to give an example from this forum (just judging by his posts).... :). Hope LittleToe doesn't mind this comparison.
Pole -
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What makes a cult a "cult"?
by XQsThaiPoes inwhen does a high control group cross the line bettween being socially acceptable to being a "cult"?.
why do the marines or dod or cia earn special pleading to exempt them from being a "cult" when they seem to have most of the signs of being a cult.
is it simply the notion that theoretically they should be protecting our interest.
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Pole
XQ,
In another thread (which got deleted BTW for being too off-topic on that thread) you said something to this effect:
"Saying that JWs are a cult is way too western. Is Iran a giant cult?"
My reply: Iran is a giant totalitarian state. There are fundamentalist and liberal Iranians. They have spies and loyalists. But at the end of the day they are a pretty totalitarian ("theocratic") state. By western standards of course - but I personally prefer them to Oriental ones... :)
You can be a perfectly happy Iranian fundamentalist. Or a perfectly happy cynical, liberal Iranian who'd rather live in a western democracy. When are you going to have problems though? Only when you start voicing your opinions or when you plan on leaving the system. This is the best test for a totalitarian system - religious or political one.
The WTS is similar, although they exert pressure in other ways of course. But if you gave the WTS leaders a piece of land to start their own state, you'd end up creating a totalitarian theocracy. A Taliban state.
I know your opinion. You will say the WTS religion have been going mainstream for a while. If so, they still have a looong way to go. If they are just like Catholics, then why is there no DB in which hundreds of thousands of former Catholics participate to get mental healing, recovery, or simply to tell their stories of shunning and abuse (factor in the number of believers in both religions)? If they are just like Catholics, why are they severly punished for merely expressing disagreement with the official doctrine?
Of course JWs are mainstream in many respects. And there are cultish subgroups within the Catholic Church. But if you take into account the proportions and the intensity of fundamentalism, then Jwism comes across as a cult and the CC as a mainstream religion.
THe difference between the CIA and the WTS? Simple. Does the CIA use prolonged, coercive strategies of proselytising to recruit new members? Does it promise eternal life in Paradise in exchange for lifelong free labour for the org?
Once you're in the brainwashing may be similar. But it usually isn't. Most CIA agents are just as cynical as the organization which recruited them. Most JWs honestly believe in the WTS doctrines. TO such a degree that they're ready to sacrifice their children for the doctrine.
Pole -
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Well ,I Just Had An Elder Come By To See If I Wanted To Go For A Beer
by minimus ina little before 5p.m., i got a call asking me how long i'd be working to.
it was my ex best friend, i'll call roger.
i recognized his voice.
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Pole
A long-time fader who makes explicit statements about not wanting to go back to the meetings is difficult to categorise by WTS standards. It's fun to watch them trying to come up with an explanation.
They can't figure out if you are only a "spiritually weak" one or maybe already a "mad apostate".
Pole