jesus was a ransom sacrifice for many.
according to scripture, he died to save the world and carried the sins of the world with him as he died.
he actually suffered an horrendous death, dying 3 hours after being crucified.
Well considering that the bible is great book on myth making, anything is possible.
Have any of you read Burton Macks, or Elaine Pagels books, or the other multitude of thought by other bible scholars?
I found after leaving the JW and realizing it is bogus, and the Governing Body have no authority at all, that perhaps the bible needed to be investigated. Well what I discovered along the way certainly changed my view points.
Balsam
i no longer consider myself a christian.. i feel that there may be a god, but if there is, he's not the god christians worship, for such a god makes no sense.. if as the bible says we need to have faith in jesus to get everlasting life,,, why would this god make it so misleading and leave so much room for ligitmate doubt,,, by having this information passed on to us by men and organizations that have not been totally honest????.
why would he use the bible to relate this information, when the bible is so full of errors????
the evidence is very clear that the bible has been tampered with over the centuries, so that a reasonable person can have legitimate doubts about the bible's origins.. also, why would god use men who are so prone to dishonesty, to convey this lifesaving information?.
Hi Everyone,
This is an interesting discussion. When I left the witnesses I did some investigation on the background of the WTBTS and found it lacking in divine direction. Then I began to look at traditional Churches condemned by the JW, as perhaps a source of the divine and found it lacking also. Then I wondered about the bible itself, and have read book shelves full of books on the Bible, about it being a historically accurate book or not. By far hands down it seems that the bible is a collection of stories created by men to explain why humans exsist and is not from God. But then I thought Jesus and his story is so amazing so then I began to investigate Jesus, and man's claim that he is divine, a God, and our savior. Well I found that Jesus was an extraordinally wise man much like the Buddha, and other religious men of times past. Was he divine, or more divine than say myself or anyone else? Well I found that it appears that he was not. The Jew's saw him as a wise man, a teacher. So how did it come about that he then began to be seen as God come in the flesh. Well a man name Saul who persecuted the Christians, got a vision and completely changed, and changed his name to Paul. He too became a follower of Jesus, and viewed him as divine. The other Apostles viewed him as different and questionable. Peter jumped right in there and defended Paul. Paul went on to preach that Jesus was the messiah, God in the flesh. Out of all the Christian groups that came about Paul's Christian preaching was the most effective. Paul is the one who created much of the so called Christian doctrine followed today. Of course then you have the Catholic Church and its beginnings with Constantine. The Church then changed some of the writings to suit their needs, and divine authority. Even some of Pauls writings were altered it seems. So what we ended up with is a book canonized by the Catholic Church as God's Word. Can we believe it as from God and was divinely protected? No don't think so. It is a book that controls by fear of God, fear of Satan. Some of the saying in the bible though are very valueable in the teachings of love, compassion, and empathy for others.
In the end I found a very small percentage of Christians called Gnostics through out the world, who follow some of the non-canon writtings of early times. The Book of Thomas, has proved intersting.
A book I am reading now by Burton L. Mack a bible scholar called " Who Wrote The New Testament? The making of the Christian Myth" Well worth reading for those who wish to know how the Jesus movement ever got started that has so affected Western culture. This bible scholar answers a lot of questions, and give background on the culture of that period of time.
I know God is with me in my search, but in the beginnings I felt so frustrated, even angry I had to do this on my own. I just wanted to have someone to tell me how to believe and them be right. But the path to spirituality and knowledge is very individual. The Apostle Paul had his vision, and he wanted everyone to share his vision as accurate. That is where the mistake lays, trying to make us all of one thought and mind, when that is impossible. Spirituality can't be regulated by some one vision. And fear of religion, God, Satan, and man is our greatest enemy to finding answers. The key is love, for if the bible is correct in anything at all. God is Love.
Loved everyone's thought here
i've been using the walk away, avoid elder contact play for a couple of months now.
my boss (an ms in a different cong.
) leaves me a message saying that the elders from my hall called him at his meeting last night.
Something my son found called the Elders off was a BAPTISM NULLIFICATION letter. You would have to have been baptized as a young person, and have wanted to leave shortly after becoming 18 or so, and been inactive. The Elders and apparently the Society decided it was not worth the risk of a potential law suit, to disfellowship my son since he was forced into baptism at an early age of 13. Any way even now the elders are leaving my youngest son alone too. Now they do have stuff to disfellowship them on, but so far have backed off of both of them. It prevents them from disfellowshipping or disassociating kids raised in the witnesses. They can only announce that the person it not a publisher any longer. If the person is disfellowshipped or disassocated it can leave the congregation and society open to a law suit.
If you want a copy of it email me at : [email protected] I'll send it to you.
Ruth
well we had the co's visit tonight.
i can feel myself fading slowly away, i even called up some of my "worldly friends" and i even called up a girl who i had a huge crush on in high school with whom i've lost touch over the years.
why is everybody so chipper when the co visits?
Hi JV,
Be thankful you never got baptized. That is one think I wish I could have had sense enough to do is stop my sons from getting baptized. Hug problem for young people who do. You can walk away and not be disfellowshipped. Now that isn't to say that some won't shun you, but from an offical standpoint they aren't suppose too.
I remember trying to be so up beat when the CO came around for the benefit of my children, when actutally I hated it. The talks were depressing and always reminded us we weren't doing enough. I know my boys now 16 & 20 hated the meetings. My sons all got baptized unfortunately because their Dad is a rabid JW at age 13.
My youngest son and oldest son have refused to go to meetings. My middle son died as result of needed blood transfusions after a terrible car accident. He was just 15, and his father killed him by refusing blood for him. Is that expression of Jehovah's love, letting our children die? I don't think so, so I left it. Anyway it eventually caused me and my two remaining sons to leave the JW. Their Dad is the only one left out of our family still plodding along with his new wife.
Run away from it, get with your high school friends, and other friends outside the JW. Your life will be much better. Life is much better out of it. Do your research on the WTS.
Balsam
"the bible is the inspired word of god.
"holy spirit came upon men who then wrote the various books that make up the bible.
what was the criteria for determining if a given piece of writing, such as the books matthew, mark, luke, john and acts, or letters, such as the ones written by paul, were inspired?
Found this discussion, glad to see it.
I've been doing a lot of research on this, and was shocked to find the bible canon we accept today as inspired today, is nothing more than a bunch of men rushed into picking out books that THEY DECIDED people needed to live by and understand. That huge portion of writing were left out.
Once again we have mislead my men, concerning the bible, and organized religion.
I am glad this information is now available to examine throughly. Those who were known as the Gnostics the earliest of Christians along before Paul, and their writing were chased down and killed by the men who decided their writings did not belong in the bible canon.
Balsam
engaging in the xmas shopping rush is never boring when you've got shunners in the mall!.
will they just stare?
will they perhaps smile?
I moved about 55 miles from the congregation I was assocated with before my disfellowshipping. For over a year as I would travel there to spend time with my son every other weekend there, I would run into JW occasionally. I never paid any attention to them, and acted like I had never seen them before. If they spoke to my son, I would stand away from them about 5 ft, and look at something else if we were in a store. No one ever spoke to him other than to say hi to him if we were out eating. I could tell from some of their faces they were terribly curious as to why I left my wonderful JW ministerial servant husband. But since they can never speak to them unless they break the rules, they will never know. So I just smile and ignore them, or treat them like a perfect stranger. They are far more uncomfortable than I am. I have nothing to be ashamed off, they do. I am free, they are imprisoned by choice. I did have a few of the JW's glare at me when they saw me with my son, but would always speak or say hi nicely to my son. I would simply smile at them. Shunning does not bother me in the least, I feel sorry for them, after all I have been in their shoes too.
In the town I live in now the JW don't know me and I don't know them. So I never give them any thought at all now. Just when I have to travel through the old town I lived in. So far in two years I haven't even had any come to my door. Have had Mormons come though.
.
just though it would be interesting to get your views on a series of events that were recorded 2,500bc.osiris-dionysus was born of a mortal virgin who after her death is honoured as a divine beingosiris-dionysus was born on either 25th december or 6th januarythe birth of osiris-dionysus is prophesised by a starosiris-dionysus turned water into wine at a weddingosiris-dionysus was surrounded by 12 disciplesosiris-dionysus rode triumphantly into town on a donkey while crowds waved branchesosiris-dionysus death and resurrection were celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolizes his body and bloodosiris-dionysus was accused of heresy and bringing a new religionfollowers of osiris-dionysus eat bread and drink wine to commune with him.osiris-dionysus was crucified on a treeosiris-dionysus died to redeem the sins of the worldosiris-dionysus corpse was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrhosiris-dionysus is resurrected after 3 days and is witnessed by his disciples before ascending into heaventhe dates that osiris-dionysus died and ascended to heaven are exactly the same dates that are used for jesus death and ascending to heaventhree women followers visited osiris-dionysus empty tombfollowers of osiris-dionysus await his return as the judge during the last days.
yxl1
I read Freke's & Gandy books, both of them. This has been over a year ago, have been waiting to see if any others here would finally read these. I read the "Christ Conspiracy" by an author I can't think of right now. After reading these book, it lead me to try and understand if the bible still has a place in my life. After continued investigation into the Gnostics which the WTS cames is all wrong. I think the Gnostic writtings as is spoken about in the "DaVenti codes" novel talks about that so many people are reading now.
It really takes a while to digest this kind of information, and look at it with a skeptical mind, and do lots of research. Each of us can only draw our own conclusions.
Ruth
did anyone catch this one hour discussion the other night on prime time tv?
(channel 7, here.).
i only got to see the last half hour, and i sure hope they show it again soon.
I have been a good deal of reading also about the sources of the bible writing and have come to the conclusion that the bible is a collection of myth, borrowed stories, and were never meant to be taken literally as so many Christian religion do.
Frankly I feel liberated from its bondage. Has anyone seen the VHS tape put out by IRES called "The Naked Truth" it is enlightening. There are a ton of research books out there too, like "Jesus and the lost Goddess" by Freke I found interesting.
Ruth
http://www.jw-media.org/region/europe/russia/english/releases/intolerance/rus_e030908.htm
for immediate release.
september 8, 2003
Using a heavy hand of the government never decreases JW, it only give JW power. Better have a debate and expose the falsehoods publically and the background than doing this. Stopping them from having conventions only makes them seem more appealing to people who have tenacity. I know I was drawn to them because of their so called persecution, figured that was important in being a true Christian. Seems the Russians need to learn a thing or two. But this is the way they have always did everything, thus the totalitarian rule there. No freedom.
Balsam
i know now what was behind many of the simplification procedures that were adopted at the assemblies over the years.
the books and food were given away to avoid tax problems.
but what did you think about it when you were a jw?.
When I became a JW back in 1972, there were full orchestra's for our music. We had full service meals at every assembly and convention and lots of lunch time to visit with old friends we hadn't seen since the last assembly. They even had nice breakfasts for those who arrived early. The conventions and Assemblies were days longer too and longer from beginning to end each day.
Then it gradually changed little by little. The hours were cut, then the days, then the simplified meals, music was just recorded. We were grateful for the shorter assembly days, and the days being cut down for conventions too. That was good. But I think for me it came so gradually, and I was so busy with children and getting them ready in the later days and carrying lunches for us all in coolers, I didn't see it was getting worse.
I think for me giving up vacation time after my ex-husband and I had children to go to conventions really made me irritable. I was not a happy mom, and the kids didn't want to sit all day in a convention. They wanted to have fun and play, and frankly so did I. As the years passed I came to dread the conventions, finally to just plain hate them before I left. I know my oldest son is glad to be free of it all, we talk about it often. My youngest son because he chose to live with his Dad still goes, I've told him to make the best of it, know it is boring.
Simplification was nothing more than the WTBTS was not raking in the money they used too, and we were paying the price. Where was all that money going? Have any of you wondered if the Governing Body and directors aren't lining their pockets. I believe somebody is profiting from all the money that goes into the Society, but who. The financial dept probably has the best chance of getting some of it.
The rank and file like I was I think just didn't notice to terribly much, it happened gradually and over many years.
Balsam
