Shadow -- Summary: The point is that an authority structure does not have to be established through divine intervention in order to be legitimate. The Sanhedrin did have some legitimate authority notwithstanding the self-aggrandizing claims about their origin. The consistent pattern shown by those in authority is to abuse it. This pattern has held true in every human social structure, whether established by Jehovah or not. The pattern holds true even among JWs where apparently those in authority want us to be in absolute subjection to them in contrast to every other human authority which are quite correctly viewed as deserving only relative subjection.
Shadow,
You have obviously given this a lot of thought. As I understand it, you basically are admitting that just like the Pharisees, the Governing Body have seated themselves in the seat of Moses, just like the Sanhedrin, the Governing Body expects absolute subjection to them in contrast to every other authority which only should be given relative subjection, and just like every other human arrangement (including the arrangement suggested by Jethro) those involved presume authority they do not have and abuse what relative authority is genuinely theirs.
This was very well proven by your quotes and I greatly appreciate the effort.
However, it didn't even answer one of the Scriptural proofs needed for the doctrines of faith regarding the position of the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
I note: Moses did not lie and claim that God originated the arrangement suggested by Jethro. I do not even see this scant tittle of humility from the Governing Body. They claim to be God's spokesmen for the Faithful and Discreet Slave. They claim that the Faithful and Discreet Slave are appointed by God as prophets for our day. They claim that this appointment follows the pattern of John, Elijah, and Jeremiah. The Sanhedrin was not nearly so bold.
A question: Is absolute subjection owed to any who call for it? Then we should all be Jews or Catholic. Your arguments in favor of submission to authority are carbon copies of those presented by both faiths.
In my opinion, we cannot escape the fact that if Romans 13 is to literally be applied to EVERYONE who "calls" for it, then we would change our allegiances with more frequency than a cricket hops in a new direction. Again, in my opinion, when you quote Matthew 23:3 out of context you imply (by omission) that Jesus would like for his disciples to be prevented from going into the kingdom of the heavens. (Matthew 23:13) And while I think an anology to the Pharisees or the Sanhedrin is very fitting, I do not agree that the analogy should extend to correlating exercise of religious authority to exercise of governmental authority.
Why would Jesus warn away from the leaven, i.e. the corrupting influence, of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees if he really wanted them to submit to it? To even imply that implies a contradiction to EVERY other word recorded about Jesus view of Pharisees and Sadducees. And that includes the words in the rest of Matthew 23. They seated themselves in the seat of Moses, just as the Governing Body has done. The GB goes one step further and claims divine appointment by Holy Spirit, along with the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
However, that entire argument is a side issue. A side issue that includes rampant unfounded assumptions. The discussion seems to be diverted to one you wish to have instead of staying on a track of providing any Scriptural proof regarding the points I raised. Again, you have not even addressed whether the Faithful and Discreet Slave has Scriptural support for its claim that (1) as a class they comprise (2) God's spirit-directed organization on earth today for the purpose of (3) discerning and dispensing "new light" to the (4) other sheep who can't get this light through any other means?
As far as I can tell, without substantiation for these claims there is no reason for anyone to submit to their claim to authority. I doubt if anyone would be punished for doing so of their own volition unless, in the course of doing so, they overstep a commandment of God in their haste to observe the traditions of the Governing Body. (Mark 7:1-8) My father feels I am criticizing him by questioning these things, he thinks I am, in effect, calling him stupid. That is not my intent. I intend to find out whether there is Scriptural basis for their claim to authority.
Is there, Shadow? Or is it a lie they tell? If there is, I NEED to see the Scriptural proof. I can't find it. If there isn't, then they are lying and deceiving people by claiming authority they do not have.
I cannot see where the Scriptures you provided lend support to any one of the four dogmatic doctrinal claims. These are claims so zealously upheld that people are cut off from their loved ones by simply denying the truth of them publicly. That is only supposed to occur when there is absolute Scriptural proof that someone has committed a gross wrong. You are aware that these doctrines are not viewed as a trifle in any way by the Organization. Where is the SCRIPTURAL evidence for these claims?
In other words, if the evidence doesn't exist please admit that.
Shadow: An essential test of the veracity of their claims would be an examination of the fruitage that is produced
By their fruits, yes. By their message? No. Messengers can transform themselves into angels of light, i.e. messengers of light (Light Bearers).
Matthew 7:15-23 -- "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
What would those who are rejected be doing? (1) Coming in sheep's covering, (2) prohesying, (3) expelling demons, and (4) performing powerful works. Now for a question most Witnesses fail to ask themselves about these verses: How does Jesus primarily identify those to watch out for?
As "false prophets". What did that term mean to a Jew? Have you examined the "fruit" of the Faithful and Discreet Slave in light of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 or do you look at their powerful works instead? And this really is why I feel I must know whether there is support for their claims. If there is not, I cannot possibly be speaking abusively of glorious ones to expose the lie of their Divine Authority. If there is Scriptural support, perhaps it isn't a lie.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
