i presume most of the peple ar eunpaid clergy but does anyone actually get paid or live a life of luxury paid for by the org?
on other words is anyone standing to make a profit by continuing this work..?
Has anyone noticed when you go to Jehovah's-witness.com that to the right of the forum board there is an option for single JW's. Is this for real? I find it interesting that this is posted at a mostly "apostate" sight. I know this makes money. Check it out. I can't believe this is a real sight for JW's. It seems so, well, you know, not JW like. I thought being single until after Armageddon and no children was still being taught. Someone please reply.
Thanks,
Indispair
just a question because of course we all either believed we were in the 'truth', are still in the 'truth' have left and found the 'truth', there is no 'truth' or that the only truth is found in the trailer park with a bottle of bud and a bunch of 'pozzies:)
Let me explain with a question. How many diet plans are there in the world? They all claim to work. Some with quick fixes, others with sheer will power, still others that make you eat nothing but tree bark and water. And of course there is heroin and brown rice, vegetable mix only as a lot of models have tried.
My point, the answer is balance. What works for some might not work for others. We each struggle with different metabolisms (religious topics of discussion) and you have to pray and have faith that until Jesus comes and tells you which one was right everyone is only guessing anyway. The holy spirit works in all of us. I have struggled with this issue myself and now I am raising children and want to know what to tell them. I am going to teach them what I missed being one of Jehovah's Witnesses which is - God is as merciful as he is just, he loves us and if we are working to have a better understanding of him and try to live our lives in accordance with his plans and most importanltly keep it simple. This is not works related but faith related.
Just a thought.
Indispair
a prank call made with napoleon dynamite .
sounds .
too funny.
Where do you go to hear this prank call. My sister is still a JW but that is her favorite movie. I sure would like to send it to her1
Thanks,
I am a newbie- Indispair
as most of you know by now i have told you that my mom has been a "devout" jw for over 40 years and i can't get her to budge.
well the last time we debated she left me totally confused and in a daze.
i did some fast research and this past sunday we had a free-for-all debate that lasted 5 hours.
My mother, like yours, could be an elder if she were a man. She is very well versed. I have argued with her many times on various subjects and have managed to stump her when the elders aren't present. I did not use any reading materials or even the bible. Just good old fashioned logic. On two points she got up to blow her nose and use the bathroom, I think to regroup her thougts and the third time she finally looked at me and said "That is a good question, I will have to look up some information or speak with the elders who might have more knowlege in this area and then I will get back to you. The discussion or question I asked her ? Where in the bible does it say we can not celebrate birthdays?
Answer number one - Shelley the only two birthdays mentioned in the bible resulted in beheadings or terrible events. I responded this was not true that when Jesus was born, on his date of birth, the heavens opened up the trumpets sounded and the angels rejoiced and celebrated. True it does not give a date, but none the less, the angels knew what day it was and celebrated.
Answer number two - it is idolatrous and the bible says God forbids idolatry. I asked how is celebrating a persons life idolatrous? My mother responded that it is worshiping that person and taking away the Glory of God. I reminded my mother that just two months earlier, not on my JW neices birthday (she is 6) but a day none the less, they had a "special" party for Zoe at Chucky Cheese with cake, ice cream, gifts and pizza. A lot of JW's love Zoe and came. Uh, gee, would this not be idolatrous by the way she described idolatry above.
Answer number three- You are only born once and pagan holidays are forbidden by God. My response, this is true but then why do JW's celebrate anniversaries. My mother replied - marriage was constituded by God. I responded, and birth was not? Then I further mentioned that while most holidays are of pagan origin, and the very definition of pagan is man made, then really it is wrong that Anniversary's be celbrated as the ring, and flowers and cake at a wedding or anniversary all hold pagan meanings.
She said she would get back with me once she could get some more info. I asked her if she could just use her mind, and logic and answer me now. She left.
The second thing we debated was war. Now I am writing my opinion so if you are Republican or a Bush fan you must understand that I do believe these men are puppets on strings and I don't even vote anymore but I still have my own opinions on the way the government is handling things so forgive me if I say anything that steps on anyone's toes because it was for a great cause-defusing my mother's brain washed mind.
My mother stated of couse "beat your swords into plowsheers." This is true. War is bad and nothing ever good comes from it except more death but like self defense, someone is going to lose but you still have to protect yourself. My mother replied "yes, but I would not go out and buy a gun. I replied, no but you will call a police officer who carries a gun to save you, so what he dies for helping you and you live conscious free because you did not do the shooting. Such is war. If we were really fighting Bin Ladin in Afghanistan and it was really for him and the events on 9/11 would we then be justified in doing what we could to defend ourselves and keep ourselves safe? Even God waged wars and helped certain peoples to win wars. My mother replied she would just hit the intruder over the head with a chair or something. I replied, you could still kill them and I could come in with my gun and shoot them in the leg and they could still live. She then got angry at me and said I was picking apart what the point was and excused herself to the bathroom.
It seems to me if you are interpreting the bible you are picking apart what God says in a way. He just meant for you to read his word, take his teachings (which is what discipline is) and try to apply them to our imperfect lives as diligently as we could and love him and give him glory. I don't know why disfellowshipping is beneficial then, because you are cutting people off from God's love when you do this and you certainly can't get better without God according to their teachings.
This brings me to a new question. My step father is on reproof right now for cheating and going to girly bars. He use to be an elder. He is also divorcing my mother right now without scriptural ground. He came by the other day and asked if the elders have ever came back by to make a shepherding call as they are supposed to do that with disfellowshipped people. Is this true? I can't wait to point out how wrong they handled my situation. I also wonder if I can get them to understand that my baptism should be a "do over" as I was only 14, and can only be as sincere as a lost 14 year old can be with one believing parent and one non beliving parent.
Thanks,
Indispair
i am so glad to have found this site .
i was not raised a jehovah's witness.
i studied as a teenager with my boyfriend's sister.
I was the daughter of two split parents. My mom in , my dad out. You can read about our family on line when looking up Religious Supreme Court Decision. My parents court case set the presedent for divorce cases now. My mother's case was overturned by the Supreme court and now holds the "tender years" rule which says, a child can not be taken from their mother at a young age due to maternal bonding such as done with breast feeding.
My mother and my sister and I were featured in the Awake magazine in 1985 for a good example of fleeing the world and divorce, etc. I believe it is in the 1985 Awake but I am not sure which month.
I can only tell you that as a child it was hell. I lived one way one weekend and another way another weekend. It kept my sister in and me out. I appreciate that you tell your daughter that she should wait to be baptized as I was baptized at 14 with no clue what I was doing and was later disfellowshipped. I only got baptized to make a statement to my father who I was to afraid to confront. And I wanted to please my mother and get baptized with my friend. Just keep instilling in your child the love and unconditional acceptance you have for her and tell her to pray at night and ask God' s direction on which way she should go when she is old enough to decide. She is not responsible for her religious actions until she is completely informed and neither you or your ex can do that for her.
Good Luck!
Keep your chin up
Indispair
i am terrified to be writing this because i am officially being bad.
i am talking with other "sinners".
i do not want to be a witness.
Hi Franki!
I am also new to this forum. I have been disfellowshipped for 13 years and only the last 6 have my still believing mother and sisters begun talking to me and even now it is limited. I have something they want now, my own two children and a wonderful husband. I am 30 years old and never even thought on my own to look up any information on what the JW's are really about. I can not convince my mom of any of it and all the information is a bit overwhelming.
I can tell you that you will feel so much better because you are being true to yourself to tell your family where you are at now. So many witnesses have sinned, been disfellowshipped and have repented and returned later. The thing that makes you so much better is that you are willing to be honest about what you are doing. You have to remember that if it is the elders that are directed by God and it is the elders who do the disfellowshipping, then isn't it fair to say, you could eliminate the elders and talk to God directly yourself. He is the only one that matters, and the only one in the end you will be answering to.
The hardest thing I have been trying to free my mind of is that Jehovah God is a just God but he is also a merciful God. The whole thing about religion is that it is based on faith. So no one truly knows what the end will hold. And how do you know that the elder who is disfellowshipping you is not secretly a pedifile as you do not "have God' s holy spirit". You don't. So, only God can read our hearts.
Jesus said to the prostitue "Go and sin no more" There is nothing after that saying or you will die. He knew she could possibly sin again. The whole point is to try and make your life as pleasing to God as an imperfect person can. Ask forgiveness, pray, pray, pray. I was even told if I prayed, the demons would be answering my prayers. My only question to that is, then why have I found this sight and why is my pain ending, and why am I getting some peace finally? The road to everlasting life is narrow and cramped and few will be on it. Do you know how man JW's there are? Most of them are not going to make it either according to their teachings. Just do your best and as the bible speaks of many times, keep your life simple and regard Jehovah's laws as something to guide you to a better life not scare you into a terrible one.
Love and Laughter,
Indispair - I guess I need a new name
i know i've asked this before, but i sometimes feel like i'm all alone here.
i get the emails about ex-jw meetups but no one ever meets.
was just trying to see if any new ones here are from la... .
I am sorry. I wished I lived in Louisiana. I am new to the forum. I live in the Kansas City, Mo. area. I was wondering if anyone reading this might know someone out here.
Thank you
Indispair
i would think with all that the governing body is faced with that they must feel some form of isolation even at bethel.
they must worry all the time that soon thier little world will come crashing down especially with the brutal exposer the internet is providing.
i'm also sure that they wonder who will be the next to turn states evidence against them in some legal case they face now or in the furure.. with all the very clear information on the internet exposeing the governing body thate soon some higher up will get deprogramed that have been privy to some very damaging information perhaps from the accounting or the legal department that could send thier asses to jail.
Hi, I am new to the forum.
Everyone is forgetting that this is "Satan's system of things" and that God is still in control. So the Governing Body if not directed by God is just a "puppet on a string" anyway and they will hang themselves with no assistance from anyone else.
As much pain as they have caused people I try to remember that they too are just human and make mistakes. Many have left after realizing this. I do not wish anyone harm but the "truth" will definitely set us free.
Indispair
i don't believe noah preached.. the society says he did.. it's me against them - .
genesis agrees with me and 2 peter 2:5 agrees with them.
please provide any insight.
On the subject of Noah,
My mother, still a witness, I am disfelloshipped always reminds me that the bible says the road to destruction is wide and many will be on it but few will be on the narrow and cramped road to paradise and everlasting life. In the story of Noah and the flood, only eight were on board. If you take into consideration all the witnesses that lead a double life and the fact that supposably the witnesses are the fast growing, and are very large in number than how many of them will be on the road or the "boat" as told in the bible. It scares me to think I might be laughing now and could be wrong after all only NOah and his family survived the flood.
hi, i'm new to these forums so i thought i would share some experiences of when i was a jw.. i was born in 1976 into a staunch jw family.
my grandparents, parents, aunties, uncles, cousins etc etc were all jw's going back to the 1950's.
when i was a child my parents, like a lot of jw parents, didn't let me have worldly friends.
I am so sorry for your experience as a JW. I have been a disfellowshipped JW since 1992. I was 17 at the time. I am now 30 and have two small children of my own. While I was diserving of my disfellowshipping according to the WTS, I don't feel that matters were handled correctly as you will understand as I tell you my story.
Life is funny. I know now at 30 so much more than I did at 17. I am only now curious about religion and God as I have my own two children who are 2 and a half and 8weeks old and I want them to know about God and learn about a God that I want to believe is as merciful as he is just. It was only when I began going to a Baptist church and learned about God's love that I feel a real dedication was made in my heart. I was 14 when I got baptized. To understand my decision you have to go back to when I was almost four years old. I was already getting my 15 minutes of fame and did not even know it. My parents were going through a divorce. My father was abusive, a drunk and cheated. It is no surprise that when my mother who up until this point had never heard of witnesses would need to hear about such promises that the future would hold for her if she would only become a JW. My parents divorce became the presedent for all other JW court cases in the history to come. My parents court case went to the Supreme Court and can be read online. Waites vs Waites (1976). My mother lost custody of my sister and I to my father. The witnesses basically kidnapped my sister and I and hid us on a farm. My father sued the church 75,000 dollars and lost the money but got us. Later the Supreme Court overuled the decision of the lower courts based on religious discrimination. I then spent the next 10 years going to the meetings with my step father, an elder at the time and my mother a pioneer. I just found out recently that they too had been disfellowshipped as they got together before their divorces were finalized and fornicated before they could marry. They are now getting a divorce as my mother has just learned that my step father has been going to girly bars the whole time they were married and had an affair five years ago. More on that later.
I spent every other weekend for the next ten years with my JW mother and an atheist police officer father. My mother would send me for a weekend with my dad who would say "eat the meat your father has not bled properly, or celebrate a holiday and Jehovah God will see and you will certainly perish" My father would say, "you are with me this weekend, eat the meat or celebrate the holiday or I will kill your entire church and spank your butts." So, I spent most of my time, eating my meat and my younger sisters meat and lying to my mom and feeling guilty because I knew I was going to die but maybe Jehovah would spare me as I was at least trying to save my sister's life (four year old logic). By the time I was 14, I was so depressed, so confused, so scared and just so tired I decided I had to make a decision that I could not live both ways any longer. At the same time, my best friend was getting baptized and she was 12, so maybe I needed to be making a dedication soon. Plus, my mom who now had a new life and a new child would be so pleased with me and would give me some much needed love and attention so I got baptized. I have now just recently gone back and tried to read some of the publications that preach the very thing that I should have dedicated to Jehovah God at that time and I do not understand them now let alone at 14. So, three years later, I am graduating high school with honors, I want to go to college and I really want to go to prom. My boyfriend at the time (which I hid and had not even so much as kissed and we had been dating from 14 to 17) was a witness and he had pressured me so many times to be with him sexually that again I felt that old feeling of doing what is right and pleasing someone else come over me again. I did not indulge. However, this really made my boyfriend angry so I broke up with him. Two weeks later he accused me of having sexual relations with several guys at a party with other watching. Ok, this never in a million years happend. You have to understand that the elders could not come talk to me at my home as my father was on the field service card as violent and I was now living with him so I could go to prom and college so they came to see me at work. I thought there had to be two witnesses to confirm an accusation but apparently not. I was at work checking groceries when my best friends dad and another elder handed me an envelope and asked me to meet with them or sign this letter. Like a dummy, I did not even read it as there were customers in my line and my boss was staring at me. The elder pleaded that I meet with him to discuss some serious accusations or agree to be disfellowshipped whereupon my name would be read at the meeting that Thursday evening. I was so livid, I could not sign fast enough. I never heard from the elders ever again. I just recently learned they were supposed to give me a little while and then make a sheperding call and see if I would come back. This from my ex step father elder who cheated so I don't know if this is true or not. Two weeks later my mother wrote me a letter and said I was no longer her first born. I ddid not hear from her again until 7 years later when she needed me to run a liscence plate to verify if my step father was cheating or not. I was in the police academy at the time. She then let me start babysitting my now 10 year old sister who I had not seen since she was three so she could go check up on my step dad. All of a sudden my other sister was having a baby and she began speaking to me again. We all got close again. My mom and step dad's divorce is final this month. My step dad still goes to meetings but told me different points he agrees upon. To no surprise my 17 year old sister is living a double life just like her parents were and my mom can't handle it. My 17 year old sister is questioning leaving the religion. My other sister is pioneering now and cut me off again. My mother is suppose to cut me off but wants dealings with her grandchildren. She will come over and see the children, bring gifts, loan me money and occassionally eat with me but that is the extent of our relationship. I take it as nothing would kill me more than having no relationship with her at all. I came right out and asked her if it bothered her to preach one thing and to do another and that I loved her so much and could see the pain it caused her to live both ways that I would understand if she couldnot talk to me anymore even though I did not want to and that I loved her and she was always welcome in my home. She did not answer. I also told her that I did not see how birthdays were idolatrous as she held a "special day" for my believing six year old neice at Chucky Cheese and invited other witnesses who brought gifts and had a cake. It sounds to me like they miss the joy we experience on birthdays. I do not worship my daughter but boy do I think she is special.
So you see, I feel your pain. I can't even go to church anymore as I don't believe the trinity. I believe some things the witnesses do but even my step father told me disfellowshipping is good for a small period of time but if you cut someone off completely and indefinitely how can they get back on the right path and Jesus forgave even the murderer on his day of death when he had no time to repent thus demonstrating it is a heart condition that only God himself can read. I love God. I don't know his name although I think it is Jehovah. I pray to him everynight and I do so with my daughters that he show me the truth. This is where it has led me. I can't hold down a job because I only know how to be in the world but no part of it and I do not know how to relate to others. I do know that when the self righteous one finally realizes they too are human, they come to the "unrighteous" for support. I am just honest with myself and with God and tell him I want to please him but not at the expense of losing my new family. I lived the first half of my life in dispair, I don't want the second half that way. And isn't disfellowshipping also punishing my mother who is upstanding in the congregation? How is that fair? I remember when the society told us it was wrong to talk with the disassociated and then they came back and said "woops" they were never baptized so you can talk to them, witness to them, share a meal with them but a baptized person who is disfellowshipped you should cut off. All because I was 14 when I was baptized and made a poor choice at 17 that I have rectified because I learned by having my heart ripped out that it would have been better to wait until I was married. I am married now and am faithful. I help abused children find alternative care and I teach my children to love and know God and that you can not have a good life without him in it.
I wish I could say something to make you feel better. I am not angry at the witnesses anymore but I still fear I do not have the one true religion and may lose my life. I don't know how to stop feeling that way. I just know I can't go back and be a witness. I want to be there for my family so bad but they won't let me. It is so unfair! I can't sleep at night and I am truly in dispair. Thus the name.
Indispair
