Posts by jaffacake

I can honestly say that until a couple of years ago when my friend was geting into the JW religion, all I knew was that they refused blood transfusions and had a magazine called Watchtower.

I did not even know about birthdays or Christmas. I thought they were teetotal though, and Christians.

37

Scriptures to make a JW think?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for scriptures that you believe a doubting jw would read that would cause them to think a bit.

i have four in mind now: .

'do not go beyond the things that are written.

(Matthew 25:37-46) . . .Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’ 41 "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’ 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."

It is clear to me that Christ was talking of charity, kindness and love being offered to all, not just congregation members - to these the least of my brothers...I don't know how JWs can possibly square this scripture with what they teach.

37

Scriptures to make a JW think?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for scriptures that you believe a doubting jw would read that would cause them to think a bit.

i have four in mind now: .

'do not go beyond the things that are written.

jaffacake

For me I know Jesus mentioned he had other sheep not of this fold and that the two would become one flock, so I wonder if the 144,000 and the great crowd are these two that become one and are they the natural jews and the gentiles? Thats how I understood it when reading it. Opinions please...

Arnie

The words of Jesus, the good shepherd, at John 10:16 about the “other sheep” seem to have a parallel at Ephesians 2:11–18. All the elements from John are also in Ephesians, but without the shepherd analogy. There are two kinds of believers (or sheep) Jews & gentiles; there is the good news (instead of the voice of the shepherd, Christ). Through Christ, the peoples were made into one body (one flock) under him as their head (their one shepherd). Both passages are about two types of people (or sheep where the parable uses a shepherd & sheep analogy).

I may be wrong, and do not claim access to any special knowledge nor to any earthly organisation with special knowledge, but I humbly believe that it seems likely that both John & Ephesians are continuing a crucial theme running throughout Scriptures, from the time of God’s promise to Abraham (see Genesis, Psalms, Isaiah, Amos, Acts, Galatians). There were many prophecies of the time when God would join people of all nations into one people under his Messiah. There seems no need for complicated modern arguments to explain John 10:16 when 2,000 years ago, and still today, there appears to be such harmony with Scriptures and prophecy. Don’t you think that after all the prophecies about the entry of gentiles into unity with Jewish believers, it would be amazing if Jesus had not given a parable about such an important issue? I don’t claim to be right on this but it seems more consistent with Christ’s teachings than him advocating what sounds to me like two classes of Christians.

59

What MUST Jw's believe that they don't KNOW they believe?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for beliefs of jw's that have the consequence of also requiring some other belief that they may not like or be able to explain.. for instance, you probably believe that there are an infinite number of numbers, since you can always add 1 to any number and make a new one.. what you may not think about as a consequence of that belief is that you can also start with 2, add 2, and create an infinite series of even numbers.

the set of even numbers is infinite, and the set of whole numbers (which would fully encompass the even numbers) is also infinite.

so which set is bigger?

jaffacake

That the Bible is not intended for 99% of Jehovah's Witnesses, only the so called anointed.

36

The memorial service once a year or once a week? Which is apostolic?

by greendawn in

jw
friends

there is little doubt that the early christians from apostolic times performed the bread and wine ceremony (eucharist) every sunday.

however russell made it a one time per year event.

isn't this move strange and suspicious?

jaffacake

As a young seventh day adventist I celebrated the eucharist once a year at the time of the passover. Yes, it was we adventists who taught the early JWs everything they know now, especially the wrong stuff. Before partaking of the bread and wine (grape juice as we were 100% teetotal) all the men went into one small room, and all the women into another. There we washed each others' feet. I vividly remember at 15 or 16 having my feet washed by one of the elders, and me returning the gesture.

Which reminds me...my only ever visit to a KH was at last year's memorial. I was shocked and astounded at several things, not least by the text of the day not even referring to Jesus Christ whose memorial we were supposed to be commemorating. No the text was about the FDS appointment. Not even on that one day could the text honour him!

7

fds-governing bodies inspired by: ?

by magoo in

jw
friends

i know to expect a jw to think on their own is asking way too much............but............... but just...just per chance, say that they actually did & asked for " indisputable proof " of god's direction of the fds, governin' body...... .

........... what would the wacktower or asleep mags say was the proof ?.

magoo

jaffacake

The Appointment in 1919

WT 1990 3/15 p. 14 ‘The Faithful Slave’ and Its Governing Body

21 In 1918, when Jesus Christ inspected those claiming to be his slaves, he found an international group of Christians publishing Bible truths for use both inside the congregation and outside in the preaching work. In 1919 it truly turned out to be as Christ had foretold: “Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:46, 47) These true Christians entered into the joy of their Master. Having shown themselves “faithful over a few things,” they were appointed by the Master to be “over many things.” (Matthew 25:21) The faithful slave and its Governing Body were in place, ready for a widened assignment.

WT 1994 1/15 pp. 16-17 Shepherds and Sheep in a Theocracy

Jesus said that during his royal presence, he would identify a faithful body of followers, a “faithful and discreet slave,” and would appoint it over all his belongings. (Matthew 24:45-47; Isaiah 43:10) In 1919 that slave was identified as the remnant of anointed Christians. Since then, as represented by the Governing Body

So why would Christ have appointed a religion in 1919 who was teaching.......

37

Scriptures to make a JW think?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

i'm looking for scriptures that you believe a doubting jw would read that would cause them to think a bit.

i have four in mind now: .

'do not go beyond the things that are written.

jaffacake

First let me tell you I am copying this whole thread for future use, hopefully.

Now, some of my own collection:

John 5:24

“Most truly I say to you, he that hears my word and believes in him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgement but has passed over from death to life.”

John 3:16

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9

“If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

1 John 2:27

“But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him.”

TEST THE TEACHING

1 John 4:1 The Living Bible

“Dearly beloved friends, don’t always believe everything you hear just because someone says it is a message from God: test it first to see if it really is.”

Acts 17:10-11

“Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.

1 Thess 5:21

“Test everything. Hold on to the good”

Psalm 146:3 NWT

“Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.”

James 1:5, 4:8

“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him……

“Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.”

Matthew 23:8,10 New International Version

“But you are not to be called rabbi for you have only one Master and you are all brothers….nor are you to be called “teacher” for you have one teacher, the Christ.”

John 8:31-32

“The truth will make you free”

"If one rejects a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him." (Proverbs 18:13, LITV)

SALVATION

Galatians 3:23-26 (Phillips Modern English)

“Before the coming of this faith, we were all imprisoned under the power of the law, with our only hope of deliverance the faith that was to be shown to us. The law was like a strict tutor in charge of us until we went to the

Galatians 2:16, 21

“So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified…I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.”

Romans 8:3 & Ephesians 2:4-5

“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions…….it is by grace you have been saved.”

Romans 4:5

“However, to the man who does not work [for salvation] but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”

Romans 6:23

“But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”

Romans 8:1

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ.”

1 John 5:10-13

“The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; and the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life………he who has the son has the life…These things I have written to you in order that you may know that you have eternal life.”

RELIGIOUS LEADERS

Matthew 25:25 New English Bible

“You know that in the world, rulers lord it over their subjects, and their great men make them feel the weight of authority; but it shall not be so with you. Among you, whoever wants to be great, must be your servant.”

Galatians 5:1

“It was for freedom that Christ has set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject to a yoke of slavery.”

John 14:6

“I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Acts

“There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we may be saved.”

1 Corinthians 3:11 (NIV)

“For no man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

1 Timothy 2:5-6

“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a corresponding ransom for all.”

FALSEHOOD

Proverbs 10:19

“In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression, but the one keeping his lips in check is acting discreetly”.

Jeremiah 17:5-8

“Cursed is the man who trusts in human beings, who seeks his strength in flesh, whose heart turns away from Jehovah…….Blessed is the man.….”

Luke 21:8

When Christ foretold the coming of false Messiahs, he spoke also of men who would come saying:

“the time is very near now”, and he counselled “never follow men like that”.

Matthew 24:11 & 23

“and many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”

“Then if any man shall say unto you, lo, here is the Christ or there, believe it not. For there shall rise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders…if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect.”

Acts 1:7

“He said to them, it is not for you to know the times or the epochs which the father has fixed by his own authority.”

Deuteronomy 18:20-22

“But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in my name which I have not commanded him to speak…that prophet shall die. And you may say in your heart, ‘how shall we know the Word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him.”

HYPOCRISY

Matthew 7:3-5 ( Bible) Jesus’ words

“Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the plank in your own? How dare you say to your brother, let me take the splinter out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own? Hypocrite! Take the plank out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.”

BAPTISM & THE HOLY SPIRIT

Acts 5:3-4

“why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?…….why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.

Colossians 2:8,9

“Beware lest any man spoil you by philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”

Whole of Romans Chapters 3 and 4

All of Galatians

Romans 8:9 (NWT)
"However, you are not of the flesh, but of the spirit, if God`s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong
to him." Psalm 119:130

“The unfolding of your words gives light, it gives understanding to the simple”

Matthew 7:12

“Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them…for this is the law and the prophets”

On the two commandments of loving God and loving one’s neighbour, “depend the law and the prophets” (Matt )

“The bearing witness to Jesus inspires all prophesying” (, compare 1 Peter ,11)

1 Corinthians

"If Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found FALSE WITNESSES OF GOD"

John 6:53, 53 (NWT)

"…most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day”.

Revelation 19:1 (NWT)

After these things I heard what was a loud voice of a great crowd IN HEAVEN, they said “Praise Jah”

2 Peter 1:1

“…by the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”

2 Peter 3:15,16

“…brother Paul, also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3

1 Corinthians 13 (English Standard Version)

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love,

I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind;

Love does not envy or boast;

It is not arrogant or rude.

It does not insist on its own way;

It is not irritable or resentful;

It does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends.

As for prophecies, they will pass away;

As for tongues, they will cease;

As for knowledge, it will pass away.

When I was a child I , I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully even as I have been fully known.

So now faith, hope and love abide, these three;

But the greatest of these is love.

Matthew 5:43-48

43 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens , since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same

36

Two classes of Christians after all?

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

first, as i am just back online, happy new year to everyone!

totally unrelated to the above (or maybe not), it just occurred to me that the unscriptural wt doctrine of "two classes of christians" might have some faint pars veritatis after all as far as the nt is concerned.. of course it is not about "anointed or not," "two hopes," "heaven vs. earth".. yet several segments of early christianity did seem to allow for a huge difference in levels of requirement, vocation, or fate among believers.

on the one hand, the high and hard way of the apostles, disciples, missionaries, evangelists, martyrs; on the other hand, the minimal requirement of the rest.

jaffacake

Happy New Year to Narkissos, Ross et al.

Nark's opening post makes a lot of sense, and feels right from my own reading of the NT. Is may be just me but the more I analyse scriptures and compare texts, the less clear the meaning becomes. Is it because the Bible, that is for believers, only has meaning when considered as a whole rather than inspected under a microscope?

What is clear to me, a Christian, is that the Bible teaches us that it is not verbally inerrant - a modern idea. Some of its authors include false statements of belief (in their literal sense) eg Paul at first thought that Christ would return in his lifetme. The Bible also makes it clear that the apostles continually misinterpreted the teachings of Jesus. For me however this does not diminish its importance. On the contrary, insistence on such a narrow definition of revelation and inspiration would seek to diminish God.

Something in Narkissos's post reminded me that if the Bible has validity, its true meaning cannot be found in isolated texts. The Bible teaches that our understanding of divine revelation is very limited. It must require a personal search of self discovery, including an open mind to the perspectives of others.

Yes there do seem to be echoes of 'two classes' but not in the heavenly/earthly or FDS/other sheep sense taught by JWs. Of course we can all then find another text that might imply the opposite, but that applies to any scriptures - hence all the disagreement among religions. Personally I have to take a step back and seek to gain a sense of the overall messages within, at a more intuitive level. Since I threw away my old microscope I have seen glimpses of the wood among all those trees.

Stop his drink I hear you say

52

Online Petition Re Quotes Lawsuit--PLEASE SIGN

by rebel8 in

jw
friends

hi everyone and happy new year!

i have an online petition to protest the wt's lawsuit against quotes: http://www.jwinfo.50megs.com/custom4.html .

there are currently 26 signatures from 6 different countries.

jaffacake

Signed it