🤦♂️
Posts by Jeffro
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32The King of the North as you Never Heard ity Explained Before
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/w32nome-k20?si=a8bhxh5tjrkomgzq.
rather than seeing the king of the north as the final opponent of god’s people, i propose that daniel 11 points to a completely different figure.
while the watchtower society focuses on the struggle between these two kings, they overlook a third entity mentioned in verse 40, but let’s ready this verse first from the new world translation.
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32
The King of the North as you Never Heard ity Explained Before
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/w32nome-k20?si=a8bhxh5tjrkomgzq.
rather than seeing the king of the north as the final opponent of god’s people, i propose that daniel 11 points to a completely different figure.
while the watchtower society focuses on the struggle between these two kings, they overlook a third entity mentioned in verse 40, but let’s ready this verse first from the new world translation.
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Jeffro
🤦♂️ Don’t encourage them. They might believe it.
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32
The King of the North as you Never Heard ity Explained Before
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/w32nome-k20?si=a8bhxh5tjrkomgzq.
rather than seeing the king of the north as the final opponent of god’s people, i propose that daniel 11 points to a completely different figure.
while the watchtower society focuses on the struggle between these two kings, they overlook a third entity mentioned in verse 40, but let’s ready this verse first from the new world translation.
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Jeffro
I’ve already explained to you that hyperbole is part of the genre. Daniel is religious propaganda, not a crystal ball. It’s time to let go. 🤦♂️
Towards the close of 164 BCE, he died at Tabea,
Yes. Tabae. East of Syria. Antiochus attacked Egypt (verse 40) then also attacked Jerusalem (41) but went to fight to the east and north-Parthia and Armenia (44) while he left his representatives in charge against the Maccabees but he died (45). Just like Daniel 11::40-45 says (minus the symbolic window dressing and exaggeration).
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32
The King of the North as you Never Heard ity Explained Before
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/w32nome-k20?si=a8bhxh5tjrkomgzq.
rather than seeing the king of the north as the final opponent of god’s people, i propose that daniel 11 points to a completely different figure.
while the watchtower society focuses on the struggle between these two kings, they overlook a third entity mentioned in verse 40, but let’s ready this verse first from the new world translation.
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Jeffro
Vidqun:
Jeffro, it is impossible to fit Dan. 11:40-45 into the reign of Antiochus.
It clearly isn’t, because I have done so.
It is rather predictive prophecy, deferred to the end time, some future time.
Despite the hyperbolic, open ended and superstitious phrasing in Daniel (typical of the apocalyptic genre), the time period discussed in Daniel is well known to culminate in the restoration of Jerusalem’s temple in 165 BCE and Antiochus’ subsequent death. (Sources vary regarding placement of the period of desolation from 167-164 or 168-165; 165 BCE fits the Seleucid years better.) But you’re welcome to keep chasing your tail with fantasies.
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32
The King of the North as you Never Heard ity Explained Before
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/w32nome-k20?si=a8bhxh5tjrkomgzq.
rather than seeing the king of the north as the final opponent of god’s people, i propose that daniel 11 points to a completely different figure.
while the watchtower society focuses on the struggle between these two kings, they overlook a third entity mentioned in verse 40, but let’s ready this verse first from the new world translation.
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Jeffro
Verses 40–43 are set during the “time of the end” and include reference to the ‘land of the decoration’ (Jerusalem), indicating the attacks on Egypt in those verses to refer to events during the Sixth Syrian War rather than later events.
Verses 44-45 allude to Antiochus being ‘disturbed’ by ‘reports out of the east and north’, Antiochus IV attacked Parthians and sent other troops to deal with the Maccabees (167 BCE).
And beyond that failure of hyperbolic superstitious expectations does not mean ‘it must be still in the future’.
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32
The King of the North as you Never Heard ity Explained Before
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/w32nome-k20?si=a8bhxh5tjrkomgzq.
rather than seeing the king of the north as the final opponent of god’s people, i propose that daniel 11 points to a completely different figure.
while the watchtower society focuses on the struggle between these two kings, they overlook a third entity mentioned in verse 40, but let’s ready this verse first from the new world translation.
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Jeffro
🤦♂️ Not this again.
King of the North: Seleucid Dynasty.
King of the South: Ptolemaic Dynasty.
i realise some people find it exciting to pretend the story is relevant to today, but that is simply a fantasy.
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26
Jesus the Maintenance Man
by peacefulpete ini posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.
most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.
we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.
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Jeffro
KalebOutWest frequently superimposes the views of modern (usually, secular) Jews onto ancient Judaism. This frequently involves cognitive dissonance, which results in statements such as:
There is general Jewish practice, but there is no and never has been a single mainstream Jewish dogma ... Philo's teachings were not accepted by mainstream Judaism
A substantial number of modern Jews view the stories of characters like Abraham as allegorical, and KOW would have us believe that that was always the case (though reasonably a third to half of modern Jews believe he was an actual historical person, with considerable variation about whether it matters). However, at the beginning of the Achaemenid era, the Jews needed to establish their cultural identity to the Persians in order to affirm their traditional right to their land, and it would be meaningless to view Abraham only as an allegorical figure for that purpose (though their traditional belief that Abraham was an actual person is independent of whether he actually was).
Similarly, the origins of Judaism derived from Canaanite religion point to an original belief that Yahweh was an actual local deity who actively controlled the weather along with the outcome of other events, and it was only later that the view shifted firstly to monotheism, and much later still to a more allegorical view among a subset of Jews.
When challenged on the slightest thing— especially regarding ancient Judaism viewed through a lens of modern cultural Judaism—KOW resorts to various fallacies, usually taking the form of 'you're acting like a JW' (ad hominem, appeal to pride), 'you don't understand Jews' (appeal to tradition, hasty generalisation) or 'you're attacking me' (appeal to sentiment).
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JWs and Christmas
by Rnadomchris83 ini have been lurking around here for years.
i'm not a witness, but my in-laws are.
my wife grew up in it but was never baptized.
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Jeffro
Rnadomchris83:
Anyway, her husband came over for the weekly visit last night. She stated that on (JW) TikTok there are talks of them allowing people to celebrate Christmas... Do you all think that will happen?
Not likely. They adjusted their policies about shunning last year, which included a purportedly more lenient attitude regarding repentance (so long as the person still believes what the denomination teaches and isn't an 'apostate'). Some have interpreted that to mean you can 'just say sorry' after committing some 'sin' (such as celebrating Christmas), and that is probably the source of the claims about Christmas being 'allowed'.
The most recent reference to Christmas in The Watchtower is from the October 2024 issue, page 15:
PICTURE DESCRIPTION: After being helped to reason on the Scriptures, a Bible student decides to throw away his Christmas decorations. -
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Are JW's brainwashed?
by snare&racket ini know as a jw i concluded several times that i was not brainwashed as i was not some unautonimous zombie and had not experienced anything akin to.... .
but in reality, brainwashing is a control of thought and ideas over a person and changing the way they think.
in normal life such sentences are not used, in fact they are highly discouraged... .
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Jeffro
To that extent, then yes, JWs - along with most of the world's population - are brainwashed.
JWs are subject to the colloquial form of brainwashing rather than the original usage, but the comparison to advertising is misleading. I can’t be bothered elaborating as I have limited time so GPT will do…
Equating the undue influence Jehovah’s Witnesses experience with the effects of advertising oversimplifies the concept of “brainwashing” and fails to account for significant differences in scale, intent, and impact. While both involve efforts to shape beliefs or behaviours, they operate in fundamentally different ways and have distinct implications.
Key Differences:
1. Intensity and Control:
Jehovah’s Witnesses are subject to a highly structured system that governs their thoughts, behaviors, and social interactions. This includes strict doctrines, regular meetings, and social consequences for noncompliance, such as shunning. These methods can create significant psychological dependency and emotional control.
Advertising, while pervasive, generally operates as a more diffuse and impersonal influence, aiming to shape consumer preferences rather than enforce total allegiance or comprehensive lifestyle changes.
2. Scope of Influence:
The influence within Jehovah’s Witnesses extends beyond consumer choices to dictate moral, social, and spiritual aspects of life. Members are expected to conform to specific beliefs, avoid external influences, and adhere to strict rules.
Advertising is typically limited to influencing purchasing decisions or brand loyalty. While it can affect broader societal norms, it does not exert the same level of control over an individual’s identity or social relationships.
3. Voluntary Participation vs. Dependency:
Jehovah’s Witnesses often face strong social or familial pressures to remain within the group, making it difficult to leave without significant personal loss. This creates a system of dependency that goes beyond mere persuasion.
Advertising, while pervasive, does not create the same level of dependency. Individuals can generally resist or ignore ads without suffering severe personal or social consequences.
4. Consequences of Influence:
The undue influence on Jehovah’s Witnesses can result in lasting psychological harm, estrangement from non-conforming family members, and significant restrictions on personal freedom.
The consequences of advertising are generally less severe, though it can contribute to consumerism and societal pressures related to materialism or body image.
Conclusion: While both Jehovah’s Witnesses and advertising may involve forms of influence, they operate on different levels and with different goals. The structured, comprehensive control Jehovah’s Witnesses experience cannot be equated to the diffuse and commercially driven influence of advertising. Labeling both as “brainwashing” under the colloquial definition risks conflating undue influence with ordinary persuasion, obscuring the profound differences in their impact on individuals’ lives.
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26
Jesus the Maintenance Man
by peacefulpete ini posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.
most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.
we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.
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Jeffro
In its earliest form, Judaism evolved out of Canaanite religion, with an early conflation of El and Yahweh from the Canaanite pantheon. It is absolutely the case that the earliest foundation included the idea that God controls the weather, but that view diverged into the ideas described by KOW.