Posts by Hellrider

42

Is there a freedom of choice? (rree will)

by DannyBloem in

some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.

(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.

it is also the wts doctrine.

Hellrider

Right, I did, and read thru this:

http://www.geocities.com/jeremyandrobin/lapsariancontroversy.html

...and my conclusion is that there is scientifically and philosophically absolutely NO difference between "fore-ordination" and "predestination". The only difference I find is that "fore-ordination" is a word more positively charged. I struggle with seeing what the theological difference is, too. I particularily liked this part: "While Arminian schools do affirm antecedent decrees the level of personal involvement in a given cause/effect is increased to the point where most things are a joint-product between God and man. This means that God, working with man, will secure the end product of history." ...which, philosophically takes the responsibility of bad/ethically wrong actions, away from man. Judas was, in this context, only working as Gods tool, and had to do what he did, to ensure the course that history has taken (the "all-is-gods-will"/predestination - aspect lays really thick on this "fore-ordination"-thinking). My point still stands: If Man REALLY has free will, then the course of history is not all Gods work. If Hitler really had free will...then God would have to "plan around" his actions, and then history would not be foreordinated. If history has been "foreordinated", then Hitler had the obligation (to God) to invade the Soviet Union, an invasion that cost the lives of many millions men and women. 20 million Soviet citisens died in that invasion, and (I don`t remember the number for German soldiers but) at least a couple of million german soldiers. 300 000 german soldiers died at Stalingrad, alone. Furthermore, if Hitler was Gods "tool" and HAD to do the things he did, do ensure that history would go as we know it today (to ensure that Gods pland was carried out), he would have no responsibility for what he did, as he was merely working in accordance with Gods plan.

What people who believe in "fore-ordination" has to choose between, are these: A) Either man has no moral responsibility if his actions, as man is only working within Gods plan, and there IS foreordination...

...or: B) Man has a moral responsibility for his own actions, and there is no foreordination.

42

Is there a freedom of choice? (rree will)

by DannyBloem in

some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.

(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.

it is also the wts doctrine.

Hellrider

Ok, Little Toe, I think I get it. It`s like the holy Trinity of "regular" Christianity: Logically an impossibility, but that`s just another sign of it`s divine nature...? Something like that? So the distinction makes the free will-issue into a "both,as man has free will, but God has still pre-ordained it or whatever"-thing? And yes, it`s inlogical, but that makes it really mystic and therefore cool and acceptable? (I am not mocking you, seriously, I am mocking religion)..But philosophically it won`t work. Philosophically or scientifically, God can`t have preordained everything, but still have made room for mans individual choice. Because, if God, in his "planning" of the future for mankind, would have to take into consideration the choices men make (he has foresight, and knows what they`ll do), he really isn`t preordaining it at all! Because He would have to plan "around" the choices MEN make, so therefore it isn`t him preordaining it! Or?...have I misunderstood?

15

What's the deal with fairies?

by gringojj in

one of the most annoying things about dubs is they have all these stupid rules and no one person seems to know them all.

my wifes mother said it was wrong to have a tooth fairy for our daughter because fairies are magical and whatever.

so then the other day we were at the store and there was a dress for play dress up and it had fairy wings in the back.

Hellrider

They are to queer for JWs.

42

Is there a freedom of choice? (rree will)

by DannyBloem in

some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.

(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.

it is also the wts doctrine.

Hellrider

In the Bible (also in the passages above), God "chooses" the whole time. So if he created us in his image, he created us (according to the Bible) with free will. This is also said in Genesis, if my memory serves me right, that he created us with "the right to choose between god or bad". The doctrine of JWs is clear on this, that we have free will. However, the question arises, when the Bible also hints to predestination (as in Rom: 8.28-30), that some in a sense were "blessed" to do the right thing. "For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers". So the issue is: IF some people are "better by nature" (conformed to the likeness of his son) than others, that "doing the right thing" is EASIER for some than others, doesn`t that really mean that some has "less of a talent" for choosing right? And doesn`t that really mean that there is no free will?

That God has "foresight" is not problematic, I think (or maybe it is?), because although humans have free will, God knows the future, the past and the present...according to JWs teachings. He knows what your choice is going to be, no matter what that choice will be. The question is also relevant in the question of Judas. Did Judas really have free will? What if he had chosen NOT to betray Jesus? Then Jesus would not have died on the cross for the sins of all mankind, and there would have been no salvation for anyone. Was Judas Gods "tool"? Did God make him do it? If so, he should be allowed the ressurection. If God DIDN`T make him do it, then it sure was lucky for us all that he did...as his betrayal also was a factor in the historical developments around easter that year, that has contributed to mankinds hope of eternal life. Shouldn`t he be rewarded for that?

4

Specific Last Days Question

by robhic in

i have a document i found somewhere a while ago of 9 questions to ask "where in the bible is this clearly stated?

" it is a few of the common jw doctrines that are not spelled out any place in the bible (1914, etc.).

number 6 is:.

Hellrider

Not sure I understood your question. Did you mean WHY JWs set the "beginning of the end times" to be in 1914? The reason for the year 1914 is a ridicoulous math puzzle in the Bible, I didn`t understand it while I was in JWs (I grew up in it, but left at 15, and was to young then to understand some of the basic beliefs...to me it was all just a huge pile of Armageddon-and-demons-crap). If you`re asking about the justification for the year 1914, I can explain it to you, but it`s a fairly complicated, difficult (and stupid) math puzzle. Just let meg know.

42

Is there a freedom of choice? (rree will)

by DannyBloem in

some time ago, i had a discussion with a college, a creationist, who belived that everything was already known before it happened.

(predestination).. not many people believe that there is no freedom of choice.

it is also the wts doctrine.

Hellrider

Little Toe: I have a minor degree in philosophy, but I`ve never heard that there is a distinction between predestination and what you call "fore-ordination". If anything, the distinction is only a theological one, not a philosophical one. It`s an either or, either there is free will (in the situation man finds himself in), or there is predestination (in which mans "choice" in the destination will be predestined, a matter og cause and effect, his choice between alternative actions will be determined by previous "predestined" development, like his psychological development, his genes etc.) Could you elaborate further on this distinction you make?

(excuse my english, it`s my second language)

46

Problems in paradise

by gringojj in

i know there are a ton of problems with the idea of paradise.

i was just thinking about how much sense it doesnt make.

for example how is it supposed to work as far as housing arrangements?

Hellrider

So, Inbyathread, that`s ok. Sure, God can fix the moons drift, to stop it from moving away from the earth. And he can also stop the process the sun is in, in "burning out". All stars of the universe, ours included, only has a limited lifetime. The sun is like an owen, it`s filled with gas, and eventually that gas will burn out, the sun grows til enormous size (100s of times its current size),and eventually explodes (the earth will be long gone by then). But God can stop this. God can also stop continental drift, which causes the continents to drift apart and rub against each other, which is what causes earth quakes. The question is, however: Why did God make it so in the first place. Why did he create the sun in a manner that would eventually make it "burn out", why did he create the drifting of the moon if there indeed was no "big bang", why did he create the earth with continents that drifts, causing earthquakes? Was it to bewilder the human race?, and "test us" (I know that would probably be your explanation)? That`s quite a cunning plan, don`t you think?...

About the "problems of paradise": What God would have to do, was not to just fix the laws of physics and human biology, he would also have to change human psychology into something unrecognisable to us in our current state. What about the, to mankind, incredibly important process of reproduction? Reproduction would of course have to stop in Paradise, because there wouldn`t be room for more people, eventually. Still, the desire to have children is important to humans. What about the joy of seeing your one-year-old takes his first steps, seeing your two-year-old learning to speak and accomplish things, playing,imitating adults, all the wonderful things kids do? God would have to make that desire go away. And of course, the lust for sex would have to go away too. There would be no point in having sex (for pleasure), because the basic "justification" for sex is that it will produce children (I know of course that JWs are allowed to have sex for pleasure,but still, that alone would not justify having sex...as the most important aspect of sex is to produce children). The joy of helping out your parents and grandparents in their old age would seize to exist. Respect for the elders (old people, not the elders of the congregation) would seize to exist, as there would be no old people anymore. The list goes on and on. To get to the point: What you would be left with, was a mankind that would be extremely different from the mankind we know. In essence, what you would be left with, would be a huge amount of blindly worshipping robots. If that`s what Jehovah wants, then he can have it without me...

43

Fear of God

by Satanus in

the beginning of wisdom?

or, a sign of ignorance?.

first of all, the standard christian and jw definition changes the meaning of fear to respect, like a person respects the power of gravity.

Hellrider

Thank you both. Nah, I allready wrote it down over at www.lambsroar.com, I have the same username there. The thread is www.lambsroar.com/db/index.php?showtopic=2169 (I had to write it in here, weird, the paste-function didn`t work). Funny, I`ve been online for 3 years now, but it never occured to me that there might be forums for ex-JWs. Well, good to be here.

43

Fear of God

by Satanus in

the beginning of wisdom?

or, a sign of ignorance?.

first of all, the standard christian and jw definition changes the meaning of fear to respect, like a person respects the power of gravity.

Hellrider

Ha ha, exactly. That`s exactly what I always thought too. After I left the congregation at 15, although I hadn`t been baptized, I always saw it as if I was "doomed", that I would have no chance in A, as I had "known the Truth and rejected it". But then, that thought was also with me, that, well, at least now it`s all done, and whatever happens, happens. They can`t supress me anymore. And I also realised after a while, that if God was the Jehovah of JWs, the punishing and arrogant God that DEMANDED that everyone worshipped him,hey, then I`d be a hell of a lot more of a "god" than he/it was. I am not that petty that I demand that people worship me, am I? And the only people I have met that were like that, were complete, megalomaniac psychopaths (some of the elders, btw...=o)). My mother and some of her Sister-friends were just shocked at me when I rejected their occasional attempts at getting me back into the "flock" by claiming that I wasn`t scared. But to be honest, I was (but I`m not anymore).

46

Problems in paradise

by gringojj in

i know there are a ton of problems with the idea of paradise.

i was just thinking about how much sense it doesnt make.

for example how is it supposed to work as far as housing arrangements?

Hellrider

LoL, funny thread. I am a new user btw, I grew up in JW, but left at 15. I`m now 31, but all that crap is still with me.

Trouble in Paradise: I experienced becoming a father two and a half years ago. That`s a fantastic joy, and as close to "purpose of life" you can get, I think. That will of course have to stop in paradise. Sooner or later, there will be no room for any more inhabitants, and everyone will have to stop having babies. Everyone will look young and good forever and forever, but what for? You can`t DO anything with those good looks (in matters with the opposite sex...;o), because I assume that sex will be abolished, at least when the earth is filled up with people. Well, you`ll be in good health, and you can take up mountainclimbing, of course, and travel the world. But after a while, you will have climbed all the mountains in the world. Same thing goes with scuba diving. So, what`s left then?

And one more thing: Yes, of course, you`ll stay young ang healthy forever, and never get sick, but what about accidents? What if I go mountain-climbing, fall down, and land on my head? Or if a gigantic rock falls on my head and turns me into a raw hamburger? Just put a bandaid on? ;o) I just to think about that stuff a lot when I was younger.