You know, I've wondered if people come on here (and other boards) and pretend to be JWs. I've read some posts that make the writer seem so completely disconnected from reality and so hopelessly incapable of hearing what they themselves are saying that they come off as unreal - like some wackadoo who couldn't possibly be a functioning adult - an intentional caricature.
Ingenuous
JoinedPosts by Ingenuous
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Imposters??
by searching4? ini have only been here a couple of weeks, and while i find most of you to be kindhearted, understanding and supportive, i can't help but get the feeling that there are some of us who are not who they say they are.
i'm not trying to be presumptuous, but do you think some people pretend to be x-witnesses just to mess with us?
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Where is their Scriptural proof?
by Honesty inthat people who discover the jehovah's witnesses and their watchtower bible and tract society are not nor ever have been approved by god to 'speak' for him and then leave the group are not going to be resurrected?
according to the bible everyone who has ever lived experiences a resurrection, so where does the wt 'no resurrection' teaching originate other than in the demented minds of the wt hierarchy?
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Ingenuous
Watchtower 1982 April 1 p. 27 Para. 6 [quotes.watchtower.ca]:
... unrepentant apostates go, at death, not to Sheol, or Hades, but to Gehenna. (Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Peter 2:1) The same is true of dedicated Christians who persist in willful sin or those who "shrink back." (Hebrews 10:26-31, 38, 39) These are merely examples to show that some, even in "this system of things," have committed the sin for which there is no forgiveness, not even in the system of things "to come." (Matthew 12:31, 32; compare 1 John 5:16.) They will, therefore, not be resurrected.
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Subliminal messages and the "nodding off" mind
by Lady Lee inok i know there are all kinds of educational tapes you can get to help you learn better and faster.
many of them are tapes you put on and then go to sleep.
the rationale is that it is easier to learn while you are sleeping.
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Ingenuous
Stories from the ICC: The Story of Tony Adams
- During the study it became obvious that there were so many issues that needed re-evaluation. To extricate myself from this position seemed an impossible and insurmountable task, and even if my life depended on it, I was in no state to attempt it. This was it, an information overload, the extremity of anxiety, the end of my tether, the crux of the crisis. As a result, a part of me shut down.
This is a natural psychological defence mechanism that has been observed and measured through much careful psychological research. The brain, as we switch from agitation to shutdown, changes from our normal state of consciousness to what is called an alpha state, a mild hypnotic trance-like state similar to that when one is meditating, or intently listening to music. The catch however, is that one becomes over twenty times more susceptible to any incoming information while in an alpha state.
- The techniques for inducing a low level mass hypnotic state are well known by many mental health professionals and professional hypnotists. The effectiveness of these techniques is still being debated. From my experience, I can testify that such techniques appear to be quite effective on emotionally vulnerable people.
A low level hypnotic state can be induced quite effectively in an environment with a heightened level of excitement or emotional intensity. Introducing confusion in such an environment can radically reduce one's critical faculties; logical double binds can effectively neutralise them. For more information, I refer the reader to Dangerous Persuaders by Louise Samways - her bibliography is also very useful.
- There are many other much less abusive ways, to induce an alpha state. Hypnotists do it all the time, but they are required by their own standards of ethics to inform people of what they are doing, and to have their permission to do it. A psychiatrist who does not comply with these standards, can be deregistered, ie. lose their right to practice.
In the Boston Movement, no one knows that they are modifying people's belief systems through inducing an alpha state, so no one seeks the victim's permission, and no one informs the victim of what it is that is being done to them. Members of the Boston Movement simply know that the method worked on them, and that it works on new recruits.
Everyone in cults make their decisions to remain, decisions to participate in the group's activities, and decisions to reject any doubts, while being completely unaware of this "tilted playing field".
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Subliminal messages and the "nodding off" mind
by Lady Lee inok i know there are all kinds of educational tapes you can get to help you learn better and faster.
many of them are tapes you put on and then go to sleep.
the rationale is that it is easier to learn while you are sleeping.
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Ingenuous
The Watchtower Indoctrination Process
Repetition is a potent method used to drive home the interpretations of the Governing Body. Few people notice that the same questions and concepts are repeated over and over. Yet this constant emphasis on certain ideas serves as a kind of 'Witness Catechism'. Let us see how this works during the free Bible study.Repetition and Emphasis A day or two before the study, each article or chapter being studied is first read through privately by the student. Questions appear at the bottom of each page, corresponding to each paragraph in the text. The student then underlines the answers. Almost invariably, each question has a one-sentence answer in the paragraph. Finding the answer means scanning the paragraph a second time. Underlining the sentence means reading it a third time.
During the study, your study conductor will read the paragraph out loud (or ask you to do it). This makes the fourth time you've heard each of the underlined sentences. She will then ask you for the answer, which you will read from the book.
Thus, you will have read the answer five times before you are done with it.
If you're an average reader, you will have memorized the sentence by the second or third read. Your attention will wander slightly during the fourth or fifth read. Herein lies the danger: you will not be paying attention to what is being said.
This is rote learning, such as you use to memorize the multiplication tables. By repeating the same answers over and over, you place them deeply into your memory. You actually become bored with the answer and wish to move on to something else. As a result, you do not question the answer.
Most ex-JW's (ex-Jehovah's Witnesses) identify "boredom" as one of the worst features of that religion. The constant repetition is uninspiring, and it never lets up. A topic you have studied one month may pop up in slightly different form the next, and once again you are repeating the same canned answers (perhaps with slightly different wording).
The effect is almost hypnotic. When you are in a trance-like state, (brought on by boredom or repetition), your mind goes into 'automatic mode', and reactions are instinctive rather than critical.
For example, if you drive a car along a long, undifferentiated highway, your mind will wander. Eventually you will arrive at your destination and not remember how you got there. One way of looking at it is that you had no decisions to make along the way. You were, as the saying goes, "a million miles away" -- in the car in body but not in spirit.
Actually, the Watchtower literature is quite well written, given its purpose of informing a wide range of people at various levels of education. It uses simple language -- you will seldom need to consult a dictionary. But even this lack of challenge can put one to sleep. For most people, the sheer simplicity of the writing removes the thrill and challenge of reading.
Jehovah's Witnesses have been accused of preying upon ignorant, uneducated people. It is probably more accurate (and less cynical) to say that their literature can be easily understood by anybody.
One could analyse Watchtower literature in many ways to show how it bends one's mind to accepting what is written without question, but that is outside the scope of this article. I will limit myself to describing one more technique.Asked and Answered Watchtower literature has a peculiar tendency to ask a question and then answer it immediately afterwards. It does this relentlessly, and the question/answer combination does not give you time to think about the answer you've been offered, since by the time you've read the answer, you're well into the next sentence.
Here is an example, taken at random by flipping open a copy of the September 1 1996 issue of The Watchtower. On page 14 it says:
What is the purpose of this covenant? It is to produce a nation of kings and priests to bless all mankind. (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 5:10) The Mosaic Law covenant never produced this nation in the fullest sense...
Ignore the actual text for a moment and notice how the question is asked, then answered, then followed by a string of verses to look up in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures. If you decide to look these up, you will be looking for proof that the statement just made was correct. More likely, you will do what most people do: "blip" over the verses, thinking, "I guess they apply or they wouldn't have listed them", and move on to the next sentence.
In neither case will you stop and say, "Wait a minute, was that assertion correct?" This is especially true if you encounter the statement during a bible study or meeting; nobody is going to wait for you to weigh the pros and cons.
Of course, all commentaries must make assertions and then back them up. But why does Watchtower literature use this particular question/answer style so frequently?
One possibility is that the Governing Body deliberately invented the question/answer techniques (i.e. "underlining" and "immediate answers") to hypnotize people and bend them to their will. I do not believe the Governing Body is that cynical.
A more credible reason is that these techniques reflect an element of Witness culture. Witnesses acquire the belief that for every question there is one "true" answer. If the Governing Body (speaking through the literature) poses a question, they are expected to provide an answer. Witnesses do not like "gray areas". One of the chief benefits of being a Witness is that you have answers for everything.
Many of the answers may not be true, but they are answers. In a life full of doubt and uncertainty, a Witness gains enormous peace of mind simply by believing that there are men who "know". They may occasionally have to live contrary to their nature, or ignore a nagging doubt, but the reward is a feeling of certainty.
In other words, the Governing Body is giving the Witnesses precisely what they want to have.
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Still on the fence!
by acuragirl inhey everyone i know its been a while since i posted but today i felt the need.just wanted to update you all on my position which is still brainwashed!i just dont know what to do i gain my strength to conquer this disease,(thats what i call being born in the org) from others like freedom lover who have come out of this religon free and clear i know its not easy but i know it can be done.i dont know why i just cant get over it and move on already,but theres thats piece of me that says,but what if?then im back, screwed and tatooed with jdub on my forehead,thinking that jehovah is upset and dissapointed with me and satan has me in his grasp.im stil sooo confused even with all the evidence pointing to they are full of crap!what if they arent?i just want to know the truth even if i dont choose to follow it,i want to know if jehovah is watching me torment myself every day,going back and forth and i cant take it anymore.then i think what if there is no jehovah?who the hell am i praying to with my daughter at night?
(the air mabe)you see my daughter still believes even though she is ready to celebrate halloween this year and yes we bought her a costume,cinderella!my mother comes and takes her every now and then only if i promise to go to some meetings and i did last weekend i attended the sunday meeting for once in a about 6 months!felt strange to be there but once again going to a different cong i got love bombed.btw i feel guilty and scared about having anything to do with halloween this year.yup still dealing with the guilt,fear,agony,of knowing and believing in the dubs,for so long now trying desperately to get out without feeling the way i do.i just dont know what to do anymore and its a shame because the dubs have sucked the life out of me(guess i didnt check my doubts soon enough).if i dont get off the fence soon im going to go nuts.i like believeing that satan doesnt even exist and that there is no heavenly org.gives me peace of mind that i can just live my life,if theres a god,fine,is it jehovah?thats where the conflict arises and i cant just go on with my life thinking jehovah has lost me to the other side!
!im not a lost cause yet guys.i need new light!
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Ingenuous
theres thats piece of me that says,but what if?
I found myself wrestling with the same question early on. It was mainly a product of self-doubt, not proof that I misunderstood reality.I had to play it out like this: What if it's true? What if it's true despite:
- Pharisaic rule-making?
- Fear-based motivation?
- Rampant hypocrisy?
- False prophecy?
- A disfiguring of the Christian faith as presented in the Bible?
- A group of men who claim that they are the true and only mediators between God and men?
- An organization that teaches salvation is based on accepting all of their teachings and equates disagreement with them with disobedience to God?
- An organization that continues to create arbitrary rules which cost people their lives and shows that organization to be unrepentently bloodguilty?
I'm sure you can come up with others.
It's a bit difficult to start second-guessing one's self about such an organization when we play the "What if?" for all it's worth.
I imagined myself standing before God on judgement day (all of this is figurative and imaginary, of course) and trying to explain to God how I was able to remain in such an organization because I second-guessed myself. Would I be able to look Him in the eye and say, "Well, even with all of that, even with all I knew - well, I wasn't totally sure. I just kept wondering, 'What if?'" Would God buy that?
Would I buy that?
I'd highly recommend Franz' books. I especially appreciated In Search of Christian Freedom.
I also appreciated Lady Lee's post How would you feel if... And AuldSoul's post Would you teach your son? The Jehovah's Witnesses' Truth Course, recommended by another poster, is also excellent.
You'll get there when you're ready.
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Email I received off mum
by Es inhey all, i usually pop into my folks once a week so that my son can see his grandparents.
anyway last week my dad asked if i wanted to go to a country show\fete with them on sat , so anyway a couple of days later i emailed my mum to see whether my fiance (non jw) could come too.. this is the email i received today.
as you are going to be busy over the next few weeks, we dont want to put added pressure on you, dont feel you have to come to the show.plus we have already explained the situation regarding mike we dont have anything against him personally, but the situation is difficult for us regards associating with him as your fiance because it would be viewed as our supporting your decision to marry out of the truth.
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Ingenuous
{{{{{Es}}}}}
Please dont take offence at this. We will continue to help you whenever we can.
I find people say this sort of thing when they know good and well that they're offending you but feel you have no right to feel that way. And the last line was just a snub: "We're being good people - you're the one bringing all this grief on yourself."
Take care of yourself!
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What's with my Mom and the NWT?
by Ingenuous inbefore i left the org, i decided to start doing my personal bible reading in a translation other than the nwt.
my mother seemed bothered by this, wanting to know why i didn't want to use the nwt, describing why she greatly preferred it to other translations, and generally adopting a worried look whenever i mentioned the topic.
i talked to her this morning and she turned the conversation into a q&a session on a bible i was looking for in a local bookstore.
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Ingenuous
Once in a while, I would go through my Reasoning book and feel a little weird knowing there was an entire section devoted to the NWT. It looks so strange now to see the answers it gives JWs to present to questions from householders about this version. They duck the "Who are the translators?" question with an answer that boils down to "None of your business." When they "address" the issue of differing wording of certain verses, they point the reader to the footnotes in the Reference edition of the NWT for answers!
The only times I heard other translations read at the meetings was when a translation seemed to drive home the speaker's point - never to compare the wording and context in an effort to get at the meaning independent of publications or an outlined talk.
I suppose it should have set off alarm bells that JWs not only aren't allowed to read theological info from outside sources, but they are discouraged from reading any other translation of the Bible as well.
And how is it that the F&DS is so "spiritually strong" that they can read absolutely any publications they want (they have to if they're going to be able to comment on them in the mags), but the r&f can't even touch a tract handed to them by a householder out in door-to-door?
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What's with my Mom and the NWT?
by Ingenuous inbefore i left the org, i decided to start doing my personal bible reading in a translation other than the nwt.
my mother seemed bothered by this, wanting to know why i didn't want to use the nwt, describing why she greatly preferred it to other translations, and generally adopting a worried look whenever i mentioned the topic.
i talked to her this morning and she turned the conversation into a q&a session on a bible i was looking for in a local bookstore.
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Ingenuous
Before I left the Org, I decided to start doing my personal Bible reading in a translation other than the NWT. My mother seemed bothered by this, wanting to know why I didn't want to use the NWT, describing why she greatly preferred it to other translations, and generally adopting a worried look whenever I mentioned the topic.
I talked to her this morning and she turned the conversation into a Q&A session on a Bible I was looking for in a local bookstore. I explained to her what I'd been looking for and mentioned that I'd found a study Bible that I really liked. Instead of being glad that, despite my "inactivity", I'm still reading and studying the Bible, she asks, "So, have you stopped using the NWT completely?" No encouragement or interest in the results of my studying, just a very anxious tone as she asks if I've left the NWT by the wayside. Since I still crack it open on occasion, I said no, I haven't stopped using it, and got an uncomfortable "Oh" and long pause in response.
What is up with my Mom? I gather it has to do with JWs being sold on the idea that the NWT is the most accurate, God-honoring translation on the face of the earth, but why the big upset over using other versions for study? She didn't like it before I left and there seems an unspoken assumption in the air that not using the NWT means I'm totally hopeless.
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"Spiritism" has Rapidly Spread in JW Congregations
by metatron insister k, like countless other witness sisters, has a number of vague, ill-defined symptoms that drag her down physically.. her md can't find much specific that's wrong - so she seeks help from an alternative healer - who uses "healing crystals",.
"flower essences", "rebalancing energy meridians" and the like.
she seems to benefit from this - and the healer is also.
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Ingenuous
I remember when I was still in, that many of the 'sisters' had allsorts of illnesses which were not particularly well recognised, ....my question is whether or not these illnesses are more psychosomatic than real?
Surely its not coincidental that these diseases were afffecting nearly 50% of the female attendance at KH!!??
DB74 - I hope you aren't attempting to cast aspersions on the female sex by these comments.
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Theocratic Ministry School Instructions for 2006
by TheListener infrom the october 2006 km [i put .... where i left out some text]:
during 2006 the following will be the arrangements for conducting the theocratic ministry school.
source material: new world translation of the holy scriptures (bi12), the watchtower (w), benefit from theocratic ministry school education (be), "all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial" (1990 edition) (si), and reasoning from the scriptures (1989 edition) (rs).
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Ingenuous
After each part, the school overseer will introduce the next part.
Why does the school overseer have to keep jumping up and down just to introduce a part?
When I first read this, it made me think the Org thought the brothers were doing one part then sitting around drooling for 30 minutes not knowing what to do next.
HIGHLIGHTS FROM BIBLE READING: ... For the first five minutes, a qualified elder or ministerial servant should apply the material to local needs.
So they'll have a mini "local needs" talk every week now. Hmmm, the Org sounds worried - gotta keep those sheep in line - beat 'em up proper every week...
No talk should go overtime, nor should the remarks of the counselor; Assignments No. 2 through 4 should be tactfully stopped when the time is up; If the brothers handling the opening talk on a speech quality, Assignment No. 1, or highlights from the Bible reading go overtime, they should be given private counsel.
I wonder if this is to keep the PO and certain other elders from strong-arming the brothers into giving up time from their talks so the long-winded can take longer. Then again, it might be to stop those who took the extra time and left the other brothers out to dry, squeezing in what they could in the time left.
It is not necessary that he offer counsel after each of such talks by fellow elders or ministerial servants.
Too bad - some overseers really seemed to relish doing that.