Posts by Ingenuous

48

Your Advice Needed! What Appears Like My Only Way Out....

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

well gang, let me tell you a little bit about what is going on in my world.

for about the past 2 years i've gone through all the formations and as many of you have known from reading my posts i've pretty much have moved way beyond the watchtower in my mind many months ago.

coming to this board has helped with the process much, as well as getting my hands on alot of good reading material.

Ingenuous

Hi, Drew.

While you've made up your mind, I just want to re-state a few things that mirror my concerns.

You seem very optimistic about the potential outcome of your plan. It would be of tremendous benefit to your wife if it came off as you'd like. What worries me is that the risks to your wife may outweigh the benefits.

As was already mentioned, one risk is destroying your wife's respect for and trust in you if she discovers your ploy. One of the most hurtful things those who leave the Org discover is how the GB and those they put in authority give the appearance of doing a particular thing for a particular reason when they really have ulterior motives. The GB also thinks they are doing the rank-and-file a favor. While your motives are good and you deeply love and respect your wife, will she see the ends as justifying the means - especially if she discovers your plan before she's changed the way she thinks? Will she be in a place where she understands the difference between your actions and those of the Org? What is the potential for unrepairable damage to your relationship? Is that a risk you're willing to take for you and her?

The other risk mentioned is driving your wife in deeper. Your behavior and greater association with the congregation may provide enough encouragement to override the negative things she experiences. That is, after all, standard operating procedure for JWs. If she doesn't think and reason the way you'd expect - and she hasn't so far - you may do her more damage than good.

I hope I'm just being pessimistic. I wish you and your wife the best of outcomes.

11

Interesting how things seem to happen sometimes......

by troubled mind in

ever since i have begun this jw fade i have this strong desire to reconnect with those i have shunned in my past.

thankfully my own brother and wife have accepted my heartfelt apologizes and are now a part of my life again.

on my husband 's side of the family he has a brother he has not seen in about 12 years.

Ingenuous

I felt the same way.

There was actually one person in particular who came to mind when I realized what I had done to our relationship. At the time, she'd dared to question the integrity of the Org. I thought I'd "won", since I had a scripture to spit in her face for every objection she made. When I realized that I wasn't in God's organization, that I was in a high-control group, that she'd been right, I sent her a written apology as soon as I could. Her reaction was similar to the one Alana experienced. We're best friends now - picked up right where we left off. And I know that her friendship is one of the many blessings I've enjoyed since leaving.

I've also re-established ties with a couple of "inactive" relatives that my immediate family seemed to take pains to avoid. Our get-togethers were always tense (at least for me). And we weren't exactly gracious when we talked about them behind their backs. I feel closer to them now than ever - moreso than I am with my parents, even. I've discovered that they're much better people than I gave them credit for.

37

The Increasing Degradation of Women in the Watchtower Society.

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

from towerwatcher:the increasing degradation of women in the watchtower society.

the lifestyle of a woman as one of jehovah's witnesses is certainly not an easy job.

it is a well known fact that most of the work that takes place within the watchtower society contributing to its success, is due to the backbone of the watchtower which can be described as the women in the congregation.

Ingenuous

From what my parents have told me, I had issues with the way women were treated in the Org even when I was a pre-schooler - asking why sisters couldn't give a talk to do the things I saw men doing in the congregation.

Most of the sisters I knew (subconsciously) comforted themselves by emphasizing how much they didn't want the stress of being an elder, that they'd rather let the men deal with the angst - and personal responsibility - so they didn't have to.

22

When did JW,s stop considering the nation of Israel Gods chosen people?

by moomanchu in

.

Ingenuous

looking_glass,

Yes. He discusses it in The Battle of Armageddon - page-down to the line containing the page number [D625] - he discusses it after that paragraph.

22

When did JW,s stop considering the nation of Israel Gods chosen people?

by moomanchu in

.

Ingenuous

Z:

Definately not the 1900s, because Russell was a Zionist.
Ha???????????

See specific chapters in Russell's Divine Plan of the Ages (paging down to the line containing the page number [A294] ). Also, from his book and The Battle of Armageddon:

The peculiar circumstance narrated of our Lord's curse upon a fig tree which bore no fruit, and which withered away directly ( Matt. 21:19,20 ) inclines us to believe that the fig tree in this prophecy may be understood to signify the Jewish nation. If so, it is being signally fulfilled; for not only are thousands of Israelites returning to Palestine, but the Zionist movement, as all know, has now assumed such proportions as to justify Conventions of representatives from all parts of the world to meet year by year to put in practical shape the proposal for the reorganization of a Jewish state in Palestine. These buds will thrive, but will bear no perfect fruit before October 1914--the full end of "Gentile Times."

Not until the full end of Gentile Times (October, A.D. 1914) should we expect the earthly phase of God's Kingdom; for in giving a lease of dominion to the Gentiles until that date God made no mistake and his plans alter not. The earthly phase of the Kingdom of God when set up will be Israelitish; for such is God's engagement or covenant with Abraham and his natural seed. Even the chief favor, the spiritual Kingdom, was offered first to fleshly Israel, and would have been given to them if they had been ready at heart to receive it on the conditions attached to it-- to suffer with Christ and afterward to be glorified with him. ( Rom. 8:17 ) Israel indeed desired and sought the best God had to give; but "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for: but the election [the "little flock" selected from both Jews and Gentiles] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded --not forever, but until the election of the spiritual seed, the Kingdom proper, is completed. Rom. 9:31-33; 11:7,23,25-32

While Israelites in various stages of unbelief will be gathered back to Palestine under divine favor, according to promise, yet none shall be in any degree reckoned as a part, or even as supporters of, or associated with the earthly phase of the Kingdom, except as they shall first recognize Christ Jesus as the Son of God, the only Redeemer and Deliverer for Israel and the world.

56

I caught my JW parents digging in my trash + an intervention

by LeftBehind in

jw
friends

oh where to start.

i will start with catching my parents digging in my trash.

my neighbor called me on the phone and thought i would like to know that 2 people were digging in my trash and asked if she should call the police.

Ingenuous

LeftBehind,

I wish my parents had been forced to dig through the trash. They used to have a key, so my father just waited until I went to work, then let himself in for a little "reconnaissance"...

It might help to do some reading on "codependence" in getting ideas on how to break away. I'd highly recommend Melodie Beatty's books, as well as a couple "how to" books, like Emotional Blackmail and Toxic Parents.

9

JW vs Orthodox Study, Developing a Verse

by jgnat in

a young man who has been asked to develop a talk around isaiah 60:22 "how does is this verse being fulfilled today" .

he asked me to help, but not just to prepare the jw-sanitized version, but how we might include some, you know, alternative interpretations.

i thought it might be helpful to compare how a jw would study and prepare for a study, versus orthodox (or the highly unorthodox scholarship of jwd) when tackling the same verse.. 22 the least of you will become a thousand, .

Ingenuous

He could open with a couple lines like this: "It might be interesting to start our study of this verse by considering what our first president, Charles Taze Russell, taught about it. Since God's one true organization was selected in 1919, and Brother Russell's views were widely taught at that time, it must be true for us today. If Brother Russell was teaching untruth, our 'faithful and discreet slave' could not have been selected by Christ in 1919. Since we know they were, Brother Russell's views have particular relevance for us today." Then he could quote a snippet from the March 15, 1896 Watch Tower:

Isaiah 26:14: The first nine verses of this chapter are a prophetic description of the Millennial day,--when the land of Judah has been reclaimed (verse 1) and when the nations of earth are walking in the light (teaching) of the glorified Church--the New Jerusalem. (Compare verse 2 and Revelation 21:24-26 and Isa. 60:11,18-22.)

Then he could clarify by mentioning that Russell believed the Jews would literally be restored to their "promised land" and that the millennial reign couldn't begin until this happened; The "blindness" Paul said would be imposed on the Jews would be lifted, the majority would accept Jesus as Christ, and the new jewish nation would be the "headquarters" of the New System, spreading the gospel to the unbelieving nations and being used by Jesus and his anointed to express Jesus' authority on earth.

That would be an interesting talk...

14

So which Bible translation do you prefer, and why?

by mavie in

jw
friends

.

downloaded e-sword recently, with about 50 different translations and commentaries.. which translation do you prefer, and why?

Ingenuous

New King James when studying with others - it's close enough to the original that I don't lose anyone if I'm reading aloud and up-to-date enough to echo the readings others give from their more modern or paraphrased translations.

New International for personal straight-through reading. (I particularly like the Bible in 90 Days NIV.)

New American Standard for a "literal" read during close personal study/research.

11

Do you miss fictional characters?

by Swan in

i just finished a 970+ page book this weekend, a breath of snow and ashes, and now i'm bummed.

i miss claire, jamie, brianna, roger, jemmy, ian, fergus, and marsali already.

it will be one to two years before i find out what other surprising twists are in store for the time traveling fraser family.. the lord of the rings was the same way.

Ingenuous

I used to really enjoy The Cat Who... series by Lilian Jackson Braun, but they've gone downhill fast since the first half dozen or so books. I miss the Jim Qwilleran of the early books. The recent portrayal of the character just isn't the man I fell in love with... [sigh]

I also had a thing for Shane in the book of the same name when I was in grade school. And I fall for every good guy in the westerns of Louis L'Amour - especially Hopalong Cassidy!

93

In ref. to child abuse

by jw in

.

ok all time to get real.

child abuse is not limited to jw's.. if you truly want to stop child abuse first start with the family , and be honest we all have a relative that is a pedophile.. then protect your family from stranger danger.. don't just isolate to jw's.. expand and truly stop the child abuse world wide.

Ingenuous

and be honest we all have a relative that is a pedophile.
Then protect your family from stranger danger.

I don't have any relatives who are pedophiles. Neither do the majority of people I know. Being surrounded by a majority of people who have relatives who are known pedophiles - outside of a support community -seems to me to suggest some type of relationship dysfunction. I also hope that statement isn't an effort to "play down" the seriousness of the discovery of a pedophile - wherever they may be.

While "stranger danger" is an important concept, having worked with sexually abused kids, I have to say that I didn't come across a single situation in my work where a child was abused by a stranger. It happens and is a real threat. All kids, however, need to learn about limits that anyone and everyone - even friends and family members - should respect and the need to communicate about a violation of those limits, no matter who crosses the line.