joh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
Daystar, Give me a legitimate example of a force (such as water, wind, or fire) that has the attributes of personality.
I am certain of what I know is true. The issue here isn't if you think there might be a different number of primary attributes to a personality (1,2,3 or more), but whether the Spirit is a person or a force (if that's what you're getting at).
You'll have to forgive me, I'm not "certain" of what your question is or the intent of it.
joh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
If mdb isn't locked into a strict trinity concept perhaps he will agree
Not very likely. There is too much biblical evidence that the Spirit is a person and not a force. I don't think this thread was to discuss the "trinity" doctrine, but the Spirit has all the attributes of a person.
There are 3 primary attributes of personality: mind, emotions, and will. A force does not have these attributes.
The Spirit has…
A mind : 1 Cor 2:10; Isaiah 11:2; Eph 1:17; Rom 8:27
Emotions : Eph 4:30
A will : 1 Cor 12:11; Acts 16:6
The Holy Spirit...
Teaches: John14:26
Testifies: John 15:26
Guides: Rom 8:14; John 16:13
Commisions to service: Acts 13:4
Commands: Acts 8:29; 13:2; 16:6
Intercedes: Rom 8:26 **Jesus intercedes (same Greek word - entynchan o ) for believers: Heb 7:25; Rom 8:34)
Convicts men of sin: John 16:7,8
Bears witness: 1 John 5:6
Hears & speaks: John 16:13
The Holy Spirit can be…
Grieved: Eph 4:30
Blasphemed: Matt 12:32; Mark 3:29,30
Lied to: Acts 5:3
Obeyed: Acts 13:2,10
Sent: John 14:26; 16:7
He is contrasted w/ unclean spirits:
Mark 3:29,30
Lack of a name argument: Spiritual beings are not always “named” in scripture. Unclean spirits are rarely named and JW’s will acknowledge their persons (not active forces). The Holy Spirit is a designation of character.
re chap.
7 p. 37 rekindle that first love!
14 since they have no prospect of living in an earthly paradise, how is it that anointed christians, such as those ephesians, are rewarded with eating of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of god?
Well, let us consider it carefully. The evildoer alongside Jesus asked to be remembered "when [Jesus gets] into [his] kingdom." Whether we take Jesus response as "tell you today" or "tell you, today" the outcome is not altered, the evildoer is to be with Christ in
The difference in the outcome is quite evident. Interrestingly, the reason for this punctuation change (which seems quite harmless), is to keep the thief from being with Jesus in “today” (which would signify conscious existence after death).
The phrase, “Truly, I say to you”, in the Greek is amen soi lego and occurs 74 times in the Gospels. It is always used as an introductory expression. Jesus used it to introduce a truth that was very important. In 73 of 74 times, the NWT places a break (such as a comma) immediately after the phrase. Luke 23:43 is the only exception in the NWT (to support their doctrine).
joh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
I have absolutely not discussed pneuma, just the Johannine use of the neuter hen (one) referring to the unity comprised of the Father + the Son + the believers/elect. Now you can read the Spirit into that if you wish, but it is quite unnecessary to the current discussion.
Just using the opportunity afforded by your mentioning of a neuter term to bring to light a Watchtower interpretative fallacy in regard to the Holy Spirit. Might have been slightly off the topic (not really), but I had to do it. I wasn't attacking you and I did read your thread completely.
Besides, do any of these threads actually stay on topic? Being here is like being on a rollercoaster ride sometimes.
joh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
jst2laws,
likewise have the father "in" them and themselves likewise are "in" the Father?
In Rev 3:20, Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with
First, who was speaking here? Obviously Jesus was, but Rev 3:22 says the Spirit spoke that we should hear what He saith. We know from the Scriptures that the Spirit is sent (the Helper) and dwells within the man who believes and follows Jesus. Above it says Jesus will come in to him and in John 14:23, Jesus says that He and the Father will make their abode with him.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
Who is it that has come in to him that believes: Jesus, the Father, or the Spirit? Apparently all three. The Spirit is God, the Father is God, and Jesus is God. God dwells in us in the person of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not a force, but a person.
Narkissos, you said,
"What the KIT tries to convey with "one (thing)" is that the Greek uses the neuter (hen), not masculine (heis), form of the numeral. Iow, "one thing," not "one person"."
This whole idea of a neuter noun and/or pronoun being used as a proof that the Spirit is an "IT" rather than a person is a poor arguement used by the WTS to support their bias doctrine. The biggest problem with their reasoning is as follows:
In the greek language, all nouns are one of three genders: masculine, femanine, or neuter. These genders are not indicators of sex, but have to do with the form of the words. There are masculine, femanine, and neuter forms, but ‘bread’ (in the Greek) is masculine, ‘head’ is femanine, and ‘child’ is neuter. Therefore, simply because a term is gramatically masculine does not mean it is masculine in gender, because a term is gramatically femanine does not mean that it is femanine in gender, and because a term is gramatically neuter does not mean that it is an “it.”
The primary reason the Jehovah’s Witnesses say the Holy Spirit is an “active force” is that the Greek word for “spirit” (pneuma) is neuter. This is faulty reasoning due to the gender of the word having to do with it’s gramatical form and not actual physical gender. For example, in scripture neuter terms are used in reference to infants (Luke 1:41,44; 2:16; 18:15), children (Mark 5:39-41), girls (Matt 9:24,25; Mark 5:41,42), unclean spirits (Matt 12:24,27,28; Mark 7:26,29,30), and angels (Heb 1:14). Obviously, each of these beings have personality, even though a neuter term is used in reference to them. Therefore, the use of a neuter term does not indicate a lack of personality and the argument is erronously made toward the Holy Spirit as not being a person due to the gramatical gender of the Greek word pneuma.
i just had to post this beware vomit alert!!!
you'll see how different this is compared to the october 1, 2005 issue that was studied last week.
*** g94 8/22 pp.
"Who of you that wants to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense, to see if he has enough to complete it?"—Luke 14:28
It's good advise, but why use a scripture such as this to determine whether you're going to be able to afford to go to school or not? It's a bit rediculous. The point of this verse is to "count the cost" of following Jesus Christ. Again, the advise is good, but it's being used out of context. The WTS does this a lot.
In context:
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. (Luke 14:25-30)
a few months back i remembered a newbie asked in this forum what would it take for a current witness to "go over the edge".
in other words what would it take, personally as a witness, to stop going to meetings or to just quit being a jw?
what would you have to learn or see?
life's too short to feel bitter over minor changes in the Truth
You can't change the truth, no matter how minor.
a few months back i remembered a newbie asked in this forum what would it take for a current witness to "go over the edge".
in other words what would it take, personally as a witness, to stop going to meetings or to just quit being a jw?
what would you have to learn or see?
NestleBoy,
The Watchtower continually claims that they are getting closer to the light. Often, it's when a prophecy they've made has gone sour that they use this "cop-out". Do you believe it true that the WTS is continually getting closer to the light?
hey i keep forgetting but its my birthday tomorrow!.
18th november i will be the big 30 (and i look about 11!).
i really wanted tobe completely open and celebrate it properly i never dreamt i'd be still in the position of living a double life and hiding my true feelings from my family (see my other thread).
What's this about it being Pagan; That's a new one on me!
Actually, birthdays are not pagan but, the Watchtower teaches they are because they say the only two instances where birthdays are mentioned in the bible are of wicked men and they both had someone killed on their birthday. Pharaoh's birthday in Gen 40:20 - had the chief butler hanged; Herod's birthday in Matt 14:6 (Mk 6:21) - had John the Baptist beheaded.
Of course, this does not prove whatsoever that birthdays are evil, only that these men who are mentioned here did evil things on their birthday. The Watchtower is reading something into the text that is not there.
Enjoy your birthday! It's a celebration of the day God gave you life.
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with the continuing thiest-athiest debates that go one here, i have a question, mainly for believers.. as a believer in god, how does it make you feel when you hear about athiest michael newdow's efforts to have "in god we trust" removed from us currency?
i guess this question could include the 10 commandments being displayed on public building issue, or removing reference to god from the pledge of allegiance.
defd,
There is just way too much EVIDENCE in the bible, that the Paradise Earth is REAL.
Actually, there is ZERO evidence in the bible of a "Paradise Earth". It is a conjured up doctrine required so that the WTS followers have something to hope for since the 144000 people who apparently go to heaven, was fulfilled in 1935.
In reality, all of God's children go to heaven to be with Christ and the Watchtower's teachings regarding the 144000 are as erronous as their teachings on this "Paradise Earth" fallacy.
