Posts by conflicted

61

TWO down and counting

by crossroads in

jw
friends

this weekend in texas a man from over their was killed.

only reason the way he looked.

in mesa az.

conflicted

Mark, my cafe commerade, you said:

If Bin Laden gave himself up would you be happy . Conflicted
woud that satisfy you.

I say, "It would be a start." You see, when McVeigh was arrested that's all there was - no conspiracy, no group of followers to come to his revenge, nobody left to follow in his footsteps. If Bin Laden were to give himself and his followers up so that we are guaranteed that his reign is over, then yes I would be satisfied. I assume he would be tried by a world council or something of that sort, and I have no doubt that there will be enough evidence to prove this action came straight from him.

Remember, he is already at war against all non-muslims worldwide, as stated by him in a declaration made in 1998 or '99. This isn't the first terrorist act he has orchestrated, just the first massive attack on US soil - one large enough for the world to take note of.

If his reign of terror is put to an end so that it can't rise from the ashes, and bin Ladne is tried and punished for the things he has done, yes I am satisfied.

61

TWO down and counting

by crossroads in

jw
friends

this weekend in texas a man from over their was killed.

only reason the way he looked.

in mesa az.

conflicted

There IS a difference between McVeigh and bin Laden. I keep hearing about how attitudes changed once we found out the Oklahoma bombing was perpetrated by an American. But the last time I checked we found out who commited that crime, we persecuted him, we put him in prison, and then we killed him. So he was an American - all that means is that he was subject to our laws and the rest of the world wasn't affected by the results of his demise.

When Bush made his statement that "We wont differentiate between the terrorists and those who harbor them." He was declaring war upon Afghanistan - there is no other way to see it since Afghanistan has had years to extridite him for other terrorist acts. They have no intention of turning him over. That leaves our choice to a)Back off and let him go. or b)Invade Afghanistan. There is no other option - the rest of the world is taking sides already. When we go after bin Laden there will be repercussions felt throughout the globe.

That is the differnce between McVeigh and bin Laden. That is why attitudes changed - we didn't have to start a war over McVeigh, we will for bin Laden.

6

America - The Good Neighbor

by Billygoat in

jw
friends

i may get some flack for posting this, but i read it and was moved to tears.

they are not my words - it was written by toronto, canada's tv journalist/commentator gordon sinclair.

these words are the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the congressional record:.

conflicted

I heard this on the radio this morning and it gave me goosebumps. I am not easily moved by sentiment, but I was proud to be an American when I heard this. I don't really follow political news, so some of this was news to me and all I can say is I hope a lesson is learned. Not by the terrorists, they will get their lesson soon enough, but by the nations of the world who take our support gladly and then turn their backs when it's time to reciprocate.

Where would they be without our great nation? Who would they look to in their hour of need? I'm sure our government is watching to see how we are treated in this disaster - don't think there won't be repercussions later resulting from lack of support now.

Right now our interrests lie at home to pick up the pieces, but we will prevail. And when this is all taken care of there will be other, less dire situations to attend to throughout the world - and we will know where our friendships lie.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Peace

66

What I heard the JW's say in light of this tragedy

by Bridgette in

jw
friends

okay, i know (or want to believe) that not all jehovah's witnesses are this calloused.

at least i hope not.

there are some good, caring people, but here are some stark contrasts i've observed today that remind me of how glad i am that i'm not part of such an overall unloving group of people.

conflicted

I am seeing alot of posters damning JW's for callousness. It saddens my heart to see this when you look at it from another perspective - you are showing the same callousness for dubs as they show for the world. Healing can't begin until the boundries are dropped and we help people regardless of their beliefs - it goes both ways.

You have to remember two things; one, you all were there once, and many of you have stated that you would have thought the same way if you were still in. The fact that you show compassion now is not a reflection of what you believe now or then. It's a mind set that you have broken. That leads me to point two, they aren't heartless and cold. They have been trained to disregard life. It isn't the fault of the individual, the organization is to blame. The org has trained and indoctrined the rank and file to feel nothing for anyone who is not a JW. That way they can teach about the extermination of the planet without sorrow or remorse.

It comes from the top, and that is where the blame lies, not with the individual who is repeating what he/she has been taught.

85

AMERICA'S REVENGE HAS STARTED!

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

reports are coming in (bbc) of tracer fire and explosions in kabul, afghanistan.. this is of course wher osama bin laden is holed up - have the fbi/cia managed to successfully pin this atrocity on him already?.

nic'

conflicted

CNN, and ABC news report that missile attacks in Kabul are results of the civil war occuring in Afghanistan. This is NOT United States retaliation.

34

Religious Fanatacism

by drahcir yarrum in

jw
friends

if there was ever a blatant display of the dangers of religious fanatacism, this is it.

the hi-jackers of the airliners that crashed today no doubt thought they'd immediately be sitting next to allah this-afternoon.

conflicted

Well, yes. Some things upset me more than I'd like them to. You're absolutely right that my reply to TR was not okay. However, I'm not going to hide my cynicism and disdain about certain things, even if that doesn't help people "flocking to my banner". Whenever possible, I prefer cynicism over calling people I've never seen "fucking idiots" - the former being directed mostly against _ideas_ I reject strongly, the latter being just an ordinary personal insult.

Very true - I think we both learned something.

34

Religious Fanatacism

by drahcir yarrum in

jw
friends

if there was ever a blatant display of the dangers of religious fanatacism, this is it.

the hi-jackers of the airliners that crashed today no doubt thought they'd immediately be sitting next to allah this-afternoon.

conflicted

Fodeja, I fully and firmly agree with your standpoint. We don't know who commited this attrocity. We shouldn't look automatically toward any one religious group without any proof or evidence.

But the tone with which you make your points is inciting vehement and ugly responses:

It's just the kind of thinking that not only leads to the unspeakable acts of violence that we have seen today, but also to "surgical counter-terrorist strikes" on Somalian pharmaceutical plants.

Your tone with this response puts the poster in the same group as "counter-terrorists".

Do you personally know ANY muslims, or are you just repeating whatever the news media care to feed the public?

Huh?! Learn history!

Do _you_ know any Muslims, TR, except those burning flags on TV? I do.

You insinuate with comments like these that the people you are speaking to are uneducated and foolish for telling their views. I don't fault you that TV isn't the proper form of education regarding Muslim religion, but when you throw comments like these around you aren't winning anyone to your way of thinking.

When you call someone stupid or ignorant they aren't going flock to your banner, and I doubt they will try to educated themselves further for your benefit.

You ridiculed drahcir twice for his use of profane language, and yet your words drip with cinicism and destain.

21

What does the WBTS say about today? READ!!

by LDH in

jw
friends

i just called wbts public information office.

718 560-5619.. i had a hard time not busting out laughing........ i asked them, "is this armeggedon?".

the girl who answered the phone laughed.

conflicted

That is too funny.

God is supposed to come 'Like a theif in the night', and yet they have the audacity to make the decision one way or the other.

I have to give it to you though, you brought a smile to my face on this dreary day.

5

Opinions on how this tragedy will affect us all

by Ranchette in

jw
friends

i am just as shocked as every one else because of todays events.. i am sorry about all the loss of life and injuries.also my heart goes out to the friends and families of those lost.. i'm looking at how this will affect us all.. what are your oppinions on what this will do to the economy?.

what other far reaching effects may this have?

any thoughts?.

conflicted

I don't know how this will effect the financial world, but I think the worlds governments have been shaken.

First there will be concerted efforts to pick up the pieces, people and groups and organizationas comming together to help.

Then the FBI and CIA will investigate to see who is at fault. I the meantime someone may come forward to accept the blame.

I don't know how the government is going to handle it, but I think it will come down to who's at fault - governments or countries will be handled differently than a religious or fundamentalist group.

It's going to depend upon what we find in the days and weeks to come.

Hopefully this is it, and no more attacks occur. It seems now that this was a highly orchestrated and well planned attack, not some guy in his back yard.

2

Is Religion Evolving?

by peacepipe in

jw
friends

after reading the post "mire of atheism" which is a really interesting thread, i came to a thought.

when i first came to this board i wanted to add conviction to beliefs that i was not yet convinced of.

when i first started studying with the jw's i wanted to find god in the world.

conflicted

Peacepipe, great thread! That is the very next step after 'mire of ateism'. It got kind of silly after I posted, but I'm glad you took it to another level. I do believe that religion evolves.

Lets look at Catholisism, 500 years ago it was a very different religion than it is today. They used to perform exorsisms to rid their followers from demon possesion, they thought it was ok to torture people into believing as they do, they thought torturing themselves in the manner Christ was tortured brought them closer to God. That last one still goes on, but less and less frequently.

Jehovah's Witnesses is another example of this religous evolution, even though they are fairly new. I don't need to tell you how many times they changed policy - the evidence is all over this board. They changed to please the majority of their followers - to prevent mass exodus. And they will continue to change if they want to keep their members. Eventually one of two things will happen; a) They will make the proper changes to create an equilibrium between the top echelon and the rank and file, and thus continue on as a stronger faith. Or b) They will remain rigid in their faults and lose more and more followers until there is nothing left.

Neither of these scenarios will manifest themselves immediately, as this is an evolutionary process - we will see the results in time.

But in the end, all religions must evolve as the people who make up their numbers grow as a civilization.