lol nowisee. Do you want the standard definition, the Society's definition, or Bill Clinton's definition?
Posts by Cygnus
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64Do Must Dubs Have Pre-Marital Sex?
by tall penguin init's not often talked about but in my experience a lot of witnesses have sex (or something like it) during their courtship.
and most of them never go to the elders about it.
recent case in point: my dear friend got married this past summer.
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168
Has there been any "New Light" on the Blood Issue?
by Mastodon insomeone asked me if i knew anything about that.
oblviuosly i don't, so i'm reaching to all of you in this enlightened crowd to shed some light on this for me.
thanks!
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Cygnus
rootcause,
First, may I suggest to you not to copy and paste so much from Watchtower material, because it makes it look like you can't think for yourself, and instead of expressing your own opinions or thoughts, you're relying on someone else's. And if you have to quote from a source to make your point, at least as a footnote provide the publication and page numbers so it's clear to everyone you are in agreement with (or disagree with) the material you are copying and pasting and it's clear to everyone where you're getting your information from.
www.ajwrb.org is really the best site to research this topic (although I'm in disagreement with its assertion that thousands of JWs have died from lack of blood-related treatment), so I'm not going to repeat much that can simply be found there. I am just going to offer a few thoughts I have right now as I'm watching Sportscenter on ESPN.
Medically speaking, according to the American Red Cross, the chances of contracting a disease from a blood transfusion is very low. A brief review of the screening processes of donated blood is found here: http://www.redcross.org/services/biomed/0,1082,0_320_,00.html . Other countries may not have as advanced techniques. But still, if the doctor's opinion was that there was a 10% chance you were going to bleed to death (from hemorraghing after a severe trauma, say massive injuries from an automobile accident or a woman during childbirth), and a .3% chance of contracting Hepatitis C from a transfusion, which odds would a reasonable person say are the better choice?
Biblically speaking, I already made my point in my other post. The decree made in Acts chapter 15 was circulated to non-Jewish Christians to accomplish two goals: One, to direct them that it was not necessary for them to follow the Jewish ritual of circumcision in order to be Christian, and two, to ask them (non-Jews) to follow four specific guidelines of the Mosaic Law in order to 'keep the peace' with their Jewish brothers in the faith. These four "necessary things" are brief descriptions of the wider and more detailed Levitical code found in Leviticus chapters 17 and 18 that dealt with "alien residents", again, non-Jews, and what they were expected to also follow in order to be found acceptible in the Jewish community. There is nothing about Acts 15 that indicates the four "necessary things" were universal, permanent Christian laws. The decree was issued to soothe tensions existing at that time. This interpretation is what nearly every commentary on Acts 15 holds, and is indeed how Charles Russell also understood it. This explains why murder, lying, stealing, and other gross sins are not mentioned.
Watchtowerly speaking (), and more to the topic of the thread, the Watchtower organization has changed its stance on whether the congregation is responsible for removing or expelling a person who submits to a blood transfusion knowingly and willingly. This makes it obvious that they do not have the mind of God on the matter. I refer you to this Watchtower article:
The Watchtower of January 15, 1961, on pages 63 and 64 (of the bound volume), in the section labeled "Questions From Readers", states:
In view of the seriousness of taking blood into the human system by a transfusion, would violation of the Holy Scriptures in this regard subject the dedicated, baptized receiver of blood transfusion to being disfellowshiped from the Christian congregation? The inspired Holy Scriptures answer yes. . . If, however, [the recipient of blood] refuses to acknowledge his nonconformity to the required Christian standard and makes the matter an issue in the Christian congregation and endeavors to influence others therein to his support; or, if in the future he persists in accepting blood transfusions or in donating blood toward the carrying out of this medical practice upon others, he shows that he has really not repented, but is deliberately opposed to God’s requirements. As a rebellious opposer and unfaithful example to fellow members of the Christian congregation he must be cut off therefrom by disfellowshiping. Thereby the Christian congregation vindicates itself from any charge of connivance at the infraction of God’s law by a member of the congregation through blood transfusion, and it upholds the proper Christian standard before all the members of the Christian congregation.
The reason I highlighted the words in red is because today, the policy is not to disfellowship such a person, but to announce to the congregation that the person, by his taking blood, has disassociated himself or herself and by such action is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Therefore, the argument made in 1961 that it was the congregation's responsibility before God and its members to act judicially has been reversed. Now, either "the inspired Holy Scriptures" either answer "yes" or they do not. Which is it?
There are many other issues that can be taken up with the Watchtower organization's positions over the years regarding blood, such as allowing some components of human, stored blood to be transfused without a disassociation being announced, while transfusion of other components of human stored blood would result in such a disassociation, or the Watchtower's original argument that transfusing blood is biologically equal to eating it, but I'll leave those aside for now. You don't have to give me an answer, rootcause. Answer for yourself: In view of the seriousness of taking blood into the human system by a transfusion, would violation of the Holy Scriptures in this regard subject the dedicated, baptized receiver of blood transfusion to being disfellowshiped from the Christian congregation?
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Jehovah's Witness Debate in Southern CA
by Unclepenn1 infor anyone who lives in so cal and is interested, we are having a formal debate between a jw and a christian pastor.
the topic of discussion will be the trinity.
the event is wednesday, oct 5th, at 7pm at the rock church in san diego, ca.
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Cygnus
Dune, it's been a little while since I talked to Andrew, but back then I'm pretty darn sure he was not pioneering or considering it, and was too young to be an elder. I also seem to recall that his wife is a marvelous piano player and she was going to college and planning on getting her Masters, but I forget the subject. He was and probably still is a very liberally-minded JW. Edited to add: Andrew has made one post here on JWD, 3 1/2 years ago, and it's a pretty similar topic and directed at UnclePenn: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/25201/322368/post.ashx#322368 As Johnny Carson would say, That's some wild and wacky stuff.
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30
any STEAK addicts here?
by Soledad ini think i could eat steak every night of the week!
how do you prepare yours?
what is your favorite cut of meat?
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Cygnus
Oh man, could I ever go for a nice Porterhouse cooked medium-rare. It's been so long since I've had a good piece of cow.
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49
Horror film shower scene!
by ButtLight inyes, i had one yesterday!
my cats glanced towards the steps as did i. then a minute later, i hear another noise, and both cats run to the bottom of the steps looking up like they wanted to pounce.
i was a little freaked, but ignored it.
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Cygnus
This morning I saw a promo for Ellen DeGeneres' show featuring Jennifer Love Hewitt and she was talking about a ghost story where her bedroom lights turned themselves on and off and she even saw the switch on the wall move up and down. My guess is she had a form of half-awake dreamlike sleep paralysis. I get that every so often where I think I have woken up, get out of bed, do stuff and then something completely bizarre and impossible happens..... because I am still sleeping and dreamt it.
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64
Do Must Dubs Have Pre-Marital Sex?
by tall penguin init's not often talked about but in my experience a lot of witnesses have sex (or something like it) during their courtship.
and most of them never go to the elders about it.
recent case in point: my dear friend got married this past summer.
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Cygnus
Vitty, shame indeed. Think of a young JW man of about 18 and a young JW woman of the same age. Both regular pioneers. Both did something "wrong" but the incidents were completely unrelated. It was announced from the platform: "Brother So-and-So and Sister Such-and-Such have been deleted as pioneers and are under public reproof." Now what do you think everybody thought it was for? They didn't engage in sex but that is what was on everyone's mind because of the stupid way their discipline was announced.
Speaking for myself, still a JW, I started "courting" a very good looking JW girl at age 19. We did everything but intercourse, even pulling a Bill and Monica a couple of times. Our consciences were so damaged, we didn't go to the elders, but we decided to get married. It was a terrible, loveless marriage for 10 years until I finally let her go (she's still a JW and once in a great while we talk, we're friendly and our divorce was very amicable). So I'm pretty sure it occurrs often.
A little off-topic but a silly story readers might enjoy (sorry old-timers, you've heard me tell this one before). I once had a JW friend who got disfellowshipped. His crime? He got a blowjob from some worldly girl. The elders informed him that had he had intercourse with this girl, they might have only reproved him. But because his sexual sin was so perverse in Jehovah's eyes, they felt he had to be expelled.
The mindsets of Jehovah's Witnesses are so warped as to be nearly in-credible.
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23
E-mail from a Former JW Friend
by findingmyway inhey sweets:.
hope all is well.
it is not a day that goes by that i don't think about you and wonder will i ever get the chance to be with you again.
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Cygnus
I agree 100% with kid-A and AlmostAtheist, and I also think your letter of response is appropriate, friendly, and what else can I say except perfect.
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Jehovah's Witness Debate in Southern CA
by Unclepenn1 infor anyone who lives in so cal and is interested, we are having a formal debate between a jw and a christian pastor.
the topic of discussion will be the trinity.
the event is wednesday, oct 5th, at 7pm at the rock church in san diego, ca.
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Cygnus
Grouper, do I know you?
I have known Andrew Corbin for maybe 7 years. I met him on AOL. In fact I just recently mentioned him here on JWD a couple of days ago in response to a question by proplog2. Andrew indeed knows his stuff, and he indeed will make a good defense for JW christology (which is likely what this will be about; they both will agree that the Father is eternal and uncreated and nobody really cares about the holy spirit in such debates (trinitarians please don't flame me)). Andrew knows I am disfellowshipped but he will still chat with me, and on a personal level (e.g. how are you doing, how are your wife's college studies going, etc.).
I hope he does well in the debate and I stress debate for this reason. I bought and watched Greg Stafford's debate with Ron Bowman on DVD format last year and while Greg did a good job, I think he lost the debate on points. What I mean is, if you were scoring the debate, Bowman won, IMO. I would emotionally have sided with Greg but he didn't "win the debate."
I might add that Andrew, Greg, and another personal friend of theirs who is a JW used to tell me about some interesting behind-the-scenes goings-on in Watchtower apologist scholarly circles. I'm not going to relay much of it here, but one thing people might find interesting: I was told (in other words I did not verify this for myself) that there was a group of about 50 'scholarly type' JWs who were connected through the internet and communicated with Bethel's Writing Department. A schism in that group came about when Greg released Three Dissertations; some were for the book, some against, considering it apostate. My guess is that Andrew was deeply involved in that group [edited to add for clarification as my grammar was poor: of 50], and that may be one reason why he will receive no censure or discipline for participating in the scheduled debate.
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King has become Jehovah... oops
by proplog2 inking has become jehovah .... .
pardon me i guess the book is "jehovah himself has become king.".
like many in this forum i engaged the persona "you know" on many occasions back on h20.. .
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Cygnus
That is sheer insanity going on at our once beloved H2O. Excerpt of another version of the ficticious e-assembly part skally pasted:
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This is a preview of the first convention of the e-Witnesses of Adenoid Hynkel held at Bürgerbräu Beer Hall in Munich.We take you to the Saturday afternoon symposium entitled "Handling Your Reich Minister Aright".
Sister Peace: They wanted to know if I was planning to show this to anyone else. I told them my intention was to tell about Adenoid Hynkel to all who will listen. Well they tried to reason with me for a while but finally they said they could not allow me to spread material throughout the Beer Hall and cause divisions. I told them I refuse to listen to any more hypocrisy from the Tower Watch Society. To make a long story short I was summarily disfellowshipped.
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That seriously has to be the funniest thing I've read in months.
Look at the reasoning by this guy posturing himself as a JW (it almost carries a ring much like the Rick of old):
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benjamin asks the following.....
Now take a look at this excerpt from http://thetruthaboutthetruthaboutthetruth.blogspot.com/
E-W MailBag: March 29, 2003: Worst of all, the Watchtower has trickily twisted the prophecies to mislead Jehovah's Witnesses to believe that Jehovah could not be more pleased with us. That, of course, is a lie!
The similarities:
How can we as Jehovah's people, Worst of all, the Watchtower expect Jehovah to continue to put up with a people to believe that Jehovah could not be more pleased with us that clearly twist has trickily twisted His words the prophecies to attempt to uphold a faulty doctrine, namely that of 1914 to mislead Jehovah's Witnesses as concocted by the WTS? That, of course, is a lie!
While we might accept that one or two sentences might coincidentally be very similar or almost exact in both E-W’s essays and The Report, what are the chances of it happening this many times? And to be sure there are more examples not here shown. We can only conclude that either he is the author of the book or that he has merely copied the ideas and sentences of the book, but either way he has lied about his knowing of TWMC. We have to wonder why would a person go to such great pangs to hide his connection with this book called The Report by TWMC?
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And if that isn't weird enough, you have this from http://watching-e-watchman.blogspot.com/2005/09/purpose-of-this-blog-is-to-critically.html
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The purpose of this blog is to critically examine the Anti Jehovah's Witnesses site www.e-watchman.com , it's associated discussion board The Paradise Cafe www.e-jehovahs-witnesses.com the sister discussion board www.pathways-online.com The teachings of Timothy Kline AKA Morloc (Registered owner of all these sites) and the supposed owner or owners and operators of this ring of websites. In an effort to help our brothers and sisters "Make sure of all things" we will look deeply into the essays, commentaries, and discussion boards associated with www.e-watchman.com and the owners/ operators. . . The apostate sites mentioned above are by no means the only sites run by the daring duo of would be ruiners of Jehovah's people. We have a great deal of information for you, including discussion board posts and websites by apostate Timothy Kline; the real owner of www.e-watchman.com .
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And what in the world is THIS all about?
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Ensin e-watchman whois:
WHOIS information for e-watchman.com:
Registration Service Provided By: Active-Domain Co.
Contact: registrar@active-domain.com
Visit:Domain name: e-
Registrant Contact:
Walter Reyes ([email protected])
905-873-4100 Fax:
115 Front St. E. Suite #192
ffice:smarttags" />Ja sitten Wt-seuran Kanadan yhteystietoja:
Mark Ruge, Director, Public Information ()
Phone: (905) 873-4100; Toll-Free: (888) 301-4259; Fax: (905) 873-4511
E-mail: [email protected]Contact: J. R. Brown, telephone: (718) 560-5600
contact: Mark Ruge, telephone: (905) 873-4100http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=311102&CategoryID=2967&startcat=301&ThreadID=1803239 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So this "Walter Reyes" is a fake name that Robert King tried to use as domain owner?
Skally, what do you make of all of this?
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Self Pity and other worthless emotions.
by Big Dog ini never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
a small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.
d.h. lawrence.
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Cygnus
I've been struggling with the feeling of helplessness. The palsy, wrist-drop and limited movement of my fingers has kept me from being able to work, to clean my house properly, I crashed my car doing 60 mph (I should NOT have been driving and right now I take a big risk when I go to the bank or a store on my bicycle), and I cannot do the things I love, such as play guitar or piano, or play golf. Just writing is a real challenge. I've never felt so helpless in all my life. But today I did a lot of cleaning, laundry, rearranging, and told myself "If you drop something just pick it back up and try again." So I actually got quite a bit accomplished today and feel good about it. And in one hour I have an appointment with an injury lawyer and I'm going to get another opinion on whether I have a chance filing a lawsuit for malpractice/negligence against the health care facilities that severed my radial nerves in both arms and killed my hands. (If you're wondering how I type, I hover my hands over the keyboard and drop them and hope my pointer fingers hit the right keys.....LOTS of typos have to get fixed.)