dedalus

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Posts by dedalus

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  65

  The dim people

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the dim people.

  the new world society.

  the chosen, brain dead, scared people.. the watchtower's obedient parrots.

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  dedalus

  nytelecom1,

  when you post a message, there is a link that says 'use forum code in your message' just below the message box. click on it to learn how to format your posts more effectively.

  dedalus
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  6

  The Hero Falls: Remembering a young life

  by Esmeralda in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ...lost to suicide, years ago.

  he was a model young jw.. this is something i've been wanting to write for a very long time, and its finally finished.

  i am posting.

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  dedalus

  I literally teared up reading that, Es ... I don't know where "blessings" come from, but you are one of them. I'm honored to know you.

  It's amazing, the effect we have on people without ever knowing it. That sounds like a trite truism or worn-out cliche, but your well-written tribute drove home how important it is to have heroes in our lives, and how easily we may become heroes, without realizing it.

  You're one of my heroes, Es.

  Your cyber bro,

  Dedalus
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  58

  What's wrong w/JW's?

  by GodRules in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i would sincerely like to know what is so wrong with jehovah's witnesses.

  i invite anyone to post here.

  please use facts not personal opinions.. i am not interested in dates, the blood issue, nor the disfellowshipping issue since i am conviced that these do not prove that they are wrong.. i am weighing in to see if you as an opposer of jehovah's witnesses have the facts or not.

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  dedalus

  One question, Godrules: how do you feel about the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent children?

  Here's what the Watchtower says:

  It is a serious time for children as well as adults, because children that do not obey Jehovah will not be among the survivors of that battle. God will not preserve them into his new world merely because they are children .... Your being children who worship and serve Jehovah as he has commanded and who have the mark of protection—ah yes, that will mean preservation and life for you. -- Watchtower 8/15/62, pp. 494-495.

  As any Witness worth his weight in Watchtowers knows, the only way to "serve Jehovah as he has commanded" is to be a Jehovah's Witness, since they are "the only people who are following his laws as he commands" (the standard Witness cliche -- do you need a quote, Godrules?). That means that all of the children whose parents were not Witnesses will die. So, next time you see a crossing guard stopping traffic for a group of preschoolers on their way to school, remember: the adorable little tots are as good as dead. Next time you visit the maternity ward of a hospital, remember: God's gonna wipe them all out. Ooooooooooh, isn't it so cute when they drool and gurgle and toddle about? Well, Jehovah doesn't think so! After all, how dare they enjoy their childhood and relish their innocence, when there is the very serious business of placing the Organization's magazines! Think I'm exaggerating? Well, look:
  
  

  Activity in the Christian ministry cannot be confined to adults. It is a privilege of service that you children can Scripturally participate in and should engage in. If you want to obey Jehovah you will engage regularly in the ministerial activities that are arranged by the theocratic organization. Aside from weekly service in the ministry that the organization makes available to you, it gives you the splendid opportunity to serve your Creator every day during vacation periods by being a vacation pioneer out in the witness field. What better way is there to spend the major portion of a vacation? Since the proclamation of Jehovah’s truths and purposes to the people has been commanded by him, do you obey him by zealously engaging in it regularly? -- ibid, p. 494.

  
  
  So stop playing, kids! No vacation for you! Better turn in nice monthly service reports, or you're toast! Isn't being a Jehovah's Witness fun?

  So that's one thing that's seriously wrong with Jehovah's Witnesses: they are required to believe that billions and billions of little children will die, simply because they aren't Witnesses.

  If that isn't enough, I don't know what is.

  Dedalus
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  10

  The most frightening haircut of my life ...

  by dedalus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this morning i went for a haircut, and since my usual stylist (caroline, quick with the clippers and a joke, does magic with my floppy mop of hair), was out, i told the receptionist i'd settle for whoever was available.

  after a moment i was handed over to "winnie," whom i recognized as a witness from a neighboring congregation -- alas, not before she'd roughly dunked my head in the sink.

  i was pretty sure she recognized me, too.. "so how have you been, dedalus," she said.. "um, just fine, and you?

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  dedalus

  This morning I went for a haircut, and since my usual stylist (Caroline, quick with the clippers and a joke, does magic with my floppy mop of hair), was out, I told the receptionist I'd settle for whoever was available. After a moment I was handed over to "Winnie," whom I recognized as a Witness from a neighboring congregation -- alas, not before she'd roughly dunked my head in the sink. I was pretty sure she recognized me, too.

  "So how have you been, Dedalus," she said.

  "Um, just fine, and you?" I replied.

  "Very good, just returned from the District Convention," she said, smiling sickly.

  "Oh, how nice," I murmured, trying to keep my neck straight as she towelled my hair with an enthusiasm that can only be classified as homicidal.

  Once seated, I vehemently stressed that I wanted only a little bit trimmed off the back and sides. She crossed her arms, waved the scissors once or twice in the air, and bluntly ask, "Say, are you disfellowshipped?"

  I replied, nearly breathlessly, "No, I'm not, nor am I disassociated, nor am I a raving mad lunatic apostate." (Okay, okay, I lied about the last one.) Her expression softened somewhat, which inspired in me some confidence. Thinking I might preserve a shred of personal dignity without leaving the salon completely bald, I added, "Yeah, I just don't attend the meetings anymore."

  To my surprise she adopted a sympathetic stance. "Well, this old world of Satan's can drag you down," she said, bending over my head.

  I tried to turn the conversation to neutral topics, but she wouldn't let me. "Have you heard that So-and-so is disfellowshipped?" she said, clipping away. Now, "So-and-so" happens to be my sister-in-law, a wonderful woman with a lot of spirit, who was unjustly disfellowshipped. I felt obliged to defend her, even if at risk to myself (and my hair).

  "Yeah," I said, "So-and-so went to the elders and confessed her, um, 'sin,' said she was sorry and repentant, and they disfellowshipped her anyway. Isn't that confusing? I thought repentant people didn't get disfellowshipped, that God," -- I couldn't bring myself to say 'Jehover', -- "is merciful."

  She paused for a moment, sheared off a lock of hair behind my ears, and staunchly replied, "I never question the elders. Everything they do, they do for a reason." With that she knocked my head forward to trim the nape of my neck, and I prudently decided not to respond. We finished the haircut in silence.

  As I was leaving, she said, "Nice catching up with you." The receptionist, who assigned me to Winnie, looked up and smiled at me. "Oh, you two know each other, how sweet! I knew I was doing something right when I put her with you." I glared, nodded hurriedly, dropped a twenty behind the counter, and left -- thankfully, with a not-too-bad cut (nothing compares with Caroline, though).

  If I learned one thing from the experience, it's this: next time I get a haircut, I'm going to make an appointment first!

  Dedalus
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  65

  The dim people

  by Norm in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the dim people.

  the new world society.

  the chosen, brain dead, scared people.. the watchtower's obedient parrots.

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  dedalus

  nytelecom1,

  The only way to draw away its support is to present the facts. The only way to present the facts is to be reasonable.

  Um, have you ever read any of Norm's other posts? If you have, and were paying attention, you'd see that this is exactly what Norm does. He consistently backs up his claims with extensive quotes, and his analysis is invariably accompanied by a prose that is lively, sharp, and a pleasure to read.

  This post seems to be a creative outing, a departure of style -- and among other things, it is satirical, and therefore uses the tropes and conventions of satire. You don't seem to get that, though.

  Personally, I'm tired of the PC movement's attempt to eradicate all instances of generalization. Generally, Witnesses are idiots. Perhaps a few are intelligent, but nevertheless they behave like idiots, so what's the point? And if you want to say that some Witnesses are liberal-minded and tolerant and cool, so what? They'll someday be disfellowshipped, since they aren't behaving like the idiots they're supposed to.

  Dedalus
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  42

  Studying

  by tattoogrl333 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i flat out asked the jw i'm studying with what she would do if someone was disfellowshipped and she was honest and said she wouldn't talk to them since they wouldn't be good examples of jehovah witness.

  then we started talking about appearances and tattoos, and about my pink hair :) and she said it didn't matter.

  i am enjoying reading and visiting this web site but i am just not seeing the same things you guys have.

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  dedalus

  Claudia,

  I believe it! My father has practically said the same thing to me -- not interested in seeing my children either.

  When I was fifteen and told my parents I didn't want to be a Witness anymore, my mother threatened to put me in a foster home.

  When I left home at 17 to get away from Witnesses, I wasn't allowed to see or talk to my three brothers for a year.

  Now that my Mom's left the Organization, one of my brothers will only talk to her once every two months and will only let her see her grandchild once every 6 months, according to a visitation contract he drafted.

  And so on. This is typical. Sure, there are more liberal Witnesses here and there, but they're the exception, not the rule.

  Dedalus
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  42

  Studying

  by tattoogrl333 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i flat out asked the jw i'm studying with what she would do if someone was disfellowshipped and she was honest and said she wouldn't talk to them since they wouldn't be good examples of jehovah witness.

  then we started talking about appearances and tattoos, and about my pink hair :) and she said it didn't matter.

  i am enjoying reading and visiting this web site but i am just not seeing the same things you guys have.

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  dedalus

  Ok, Maybe the vegetarian example wasn't the best. I stopped drinking once and wasn't cool enough to hang out with my friends, quit drugs, and couldn't even talk to my old buddies.

  In both cases, the relationships you formed centered around unhealthy addictions. Once you got help for your addictions, you no longer had a reason for those relationships. And since your friends no longer had a reason for you, the relationships ended. Either way, this wasn't a form of institutionalized shunning so much as it was a case of moving on.

  And that's what we're talking about here -- institutionalized shunning. You seem smart enough to know the difference.

  Got tattoo's and had friends not want to be seen with me. Left home to college and parents decided not to be a part of my life.

  Not to play the pop psychologist, but I'm beginning to sense that you have issues, a hole in yourself to fill, etc. You've turned to drink and drugs, you've mutilated (decorated -- I don't mean to invoke a pejorative) your body, and you have problems with your parents. Now you seem to be leaning heavily toward joining a cult -- and yes, it is a cult. Something's up with you.

  Maybe I'm just numb to the whole shunning thing. Since everyone seems to shun everyone at some point in time, however this Jw was at least honest in telling me it would happen.

  The reason you're numb to the shunning thing is that you've put yourself in abusive situations with abusive people so many times, it seems normal to you. Healthy, normal relationships do not invariably end with hatred, intolerance, and shunning. The fact that you're considering a religion known for its harsh shunning practices only convinces me further that you've fallen into a rut and need help.

  It seems to hurt more when you don't know.

  This is very sad, but I hope you can at least see that there is a difference between institutionalized shunning, in which people shun you without knowing why they're shunning you, and the personal termination of relationships, which are made by individuals for their own specific reason.

  Good luck, anyway.

  Dedalus
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  7

  Propaganda June 22 Awake!

  by jayhawk1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i found this jewel on the society's website.

  i thought you might find it interesting.

  now i know how to avoid their propaganda!.

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  dedalus

  This article had a lot to do with my egress from the Organization. Here's part of a letter I wrote to my mother, who by this time was an exJW, in which I analyze the magazine this article came from:

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  The June 22, 2000 Awake magazine is titled "Should You Believe Everything You Hear?" The feature articles are about propaganda, and the titles are typically dramatic: "Propaganda Can Be Deadly," "The Manipulation of Information," and "Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda!"

  According to the magazine, propagandists use several methods to communicate their message and advance their cause: "agitating the emotions," "exploiting insecurities," "capitalizing on the ambiguity of language," and "bending the rules of logic." Ironically, these tactics are used frequently in the books and magazines that come from the Society. I was especially surprised to see "ambiguity of language" listed, since Witnesses have bizarre ways of talking about "truth," "the organization," "the society," "worldliness," "increasing light," "kingdom hall," "disfellowshipping" and so forth. (Did you know that the term "disfellowship" was coined by the Society? At least, I've never been able to find it in a dictionary. It's a softer euphemism for "excommunicate" or "anathematize," which are harsh Christian terms for what Witnesses do more harshly than most religions.)

  But the second feature article, "The Manipulation of Information," focuses on five specific tactics in particular:

  1) Subheading: "Lies, Lies!" This section simply states that "the handiest trick of the propagandist is the use of outright lies." It then gives examples of anti-semitism to illustrate the point. What do you think of this? Personally, I am still not quite comfortable saying that the Society deliberately, maliciously lies to us ... but, on the other hand, they *have* printed things that aren't true, and called it "truth." For disagreeing with "truth" and suggesting ideas that later were accepted by the Society, many people have been disfellowshipped. Also, as you remember from *Crisis*, the Society is aware that there is no evidence for believing that 607 BCE is a legitimate date to count from, but since the crucial 1914 doctrine depends upon it, they teach it as an unquestionable fact. I'm sure you can think of examples as good or better than these.

  2) Subheading: "Making Generalizations." This section shrewdly observes that "generalizations tend to obscure important facts about the real issues in question, and they are frequently used to demean entire groups of people." Well. Do I even have to point out that Witnesses refer to ALL OTHER PEOPLE as "worldly" or "worldlings?" It is my conviction that reducing the idiosyncratic beliefs of these people to one simple pejorative makes it easier to accept the horrific teaching that God will destroy ALL of them at Armageddon. I have never understood how Witnesses could simultaneously believe that they have the greatest love for their neighbors, and that their neighbors will be deservedly killed by God. (Growing up, I would think, "This can't be true, but if it is true, I want nothing to do with God.") Anyway, even though the Society has "toned down" over the years, they still assert that only some "few millions" will survive into the new world. Now, who do you think those millions are purported to be?

  Incidentally, many Witnesses, even if they don't consciously think about it, cannot reconcile these contradictory beliefs -- they just never *do* anything about it. While driving with [my JW brother] this weekend, the topic somehow came up, and without any prompting from me, he said he doesn't believe God will kill all those people. I hope most Witnesses feel that way. But the Society does not.

  3) Subheading: "Name-Calling." Now, this I find fascinating. Here is the idea, according to the article:

  Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of just focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller's strategy has worked.

  Well, what about the Society's use of the word "apostate"? In fact, there is a specific Watchtower article that I have in mind, fairly recent, and I would look it up and quote it to you, except I'm writing this from work and can't look anything up here. Generally, though, the article says that some people have questioned the legitimacy of the organization, since beliefs have been changed and prophecies have failed. In the sentence following this thought, the article says something like this (paraphrase): "Don't such questions reveal the true attitude and character of those asking them? Such persons have probably already succumbed to apostate thinking." Anyway, ex-Witnesses don't need a bunch of quotes, because they know how it is: if you question anything, you are an apostate, or becoming one. It doesn't matter how legitimate your questions, how logical, or even how scriptural. I included several scriptures in my last long e-mail to [my best JW friend], and all he said was "Look -- we are in Jah religion ... we have to accept that this is Jah's organization."

  4) Subheading: "Playing on the Emotions." This section focuses on fear, hatred, and pride, and says that although "feelings might be irrelevant when it comes to factual claims or the logic of an argument, they play a crucial role in persuasion." Witnesses are encouraged to have a "Godly fear," of course, but more than that, they are (in certain situations) afraid of what elders might do to them, afraid (as I still sometimes am) of being seen with "worldly" people in public, afraid, most of all, of doing anything that will forfeit their passage through Armageddon.

  As for hatred, I can only say that believing, implicitly or otherwise, that over 5 billion people DESERVE to die, and to eagerly -- even gleefully -- await their destruction is contrary to the very idea of love. I've never understood it.

  As for pride, how many times have we heard that Witnesses are morally superior to those in “the world,” that we are kinder, more compassionate, more sincere, more loving, more honest, more virtuous, more righteous, etc.? Even non-Witnesses who "seem nice" or have "good moral values" are put down as "bad associates." Isn't it prideful to be patting ourselves on the back all the time, meanwhile putting down everyone in "Christendom" (i.e. every non-Witness on the planet)?

  5) Subheading: "Slogans and Symbols." Perhaps it is a good thing that the Society chose to print these articles in the *Awake* instead of the *Watchtower*, which has behind its title the graphic watchtower symbol that represents the organization and appears on all its letterhead. Slogans? How about, "Read God's Word The Bible Daily," or any one of the year's texts that are hung up at the front of the kingdom halls? Or what about any of the hundreds of pictures depicting the Society's conception of paradise, with children playing with tigers, men and women in their native garb, generous spreads of vegetables and fruits, fields of wheat with no workers in them, architecturally intricate houses on the horizon with no signs of bulldozers, cranes, and miscellaneous construction equipment? Symbols and slogans like these, as the Awake article points out, are vague and "easy to agree with," yet they gloss over some of the logical problems with the ideas they represent.

  Anyway, the following article, "Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda," suggests five ways of combatting propaganda:

  1) Subheading: "Be selective." This section encourages the reader to "properly weigh ... new information against the Bible standard and fit what is true into his pattern of thinking." Witnesses know, however, that this does not apply to new information from the Society, which must be accepted as information directed to us from God, through the organization. Nor does it apply to apostate material, which must be avoided at all costs. Remember the picture in the Watchtower of the woman throwing away "apostate" material that came in the mail? Obviously she is selecting one thing over another, but her selection is not based on any objective "weighing" of "new information." Personally, I have been shocked at how scriptural, earnest, meek, and humble a lot of so-called "apostate" literature has been. Rarely does such literature ask anything of its readers except to think for themselves -- unlike our literature, so blatantly designed to recruit and convert. Often the attitude of "apostates" is simply this: "If you want to be a Witness, that's fine and I won't judge you, but these are the reasons why I can't, in good conscience, remain or become a Witness myself, and I only wish I would not be judged so harshly for my carefully considered conclusions." Since Witnesses are not allowed to read such statements, or talk with those who have left, they never have the opportunity to be truly selective.

  2) Subheading: "Use discernment." This section tells the reader to perceive "subtleties of ideas." But when I talk about particular aspects of Watchtower articles and scriptures with Andy, he tells me that I have to believe that Jehovah directs the organization, to "believe it even if you don't believe it -- otherwise, what's the point of being a Witness?" He's right about the implications of questioning the organization's spiritual legitimacy -- but is it right to believe something only out of desperation? And what good is my discernment, if I have to act contrary to it?

  3) Subheading: "Put information to the test." Amazingly, this section says that "it is far better for each individual to choose what he will feed his mind." WHAT?! Does this mean I can read philosophers like Nietzsche and Sartre, who say that "God is dead," or Darwin's *Origin of the Species,* which implicitly (but never directly) challenges the Genesis account, and compare their arguments to theistic ones appearing in the magazine? Better than that, does it mean I can read Ray's book to see if he has anything legitimate to say? NO! I could get disfellowshipped for reading that book! So what kind of choices do I, as a Witness, really have, anyway? How can I follow the article's advice, which is to test our opinions and beliefs, which "depend on the validity of our facts, on the quality of our reasoning, and on the standards or values that we choose to apply"? True, many people feed their minds garbage. But in the pursuit of truth, in the application of intelligence, and in the spirit of scripture (see Acts 17:11 and 1 Thess. 5:21), shouldn't I gather all the relevant information before making a commitment? And is it reasonable to expect that I might have done all this by the time I was thirteen years old?

  4) Subheading: "Ask questions." Here the Society says that "when we are presented with persuasive arguments, we should ask questions." Then, two sentences later, this unbelievable sentence appears: "Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking." Mom, how can they even dare to write this, since their own record is one of false predications, false beliefs, doctrine and reversals of doctrine that have cost earnest worshippers their reputations, their relationships with friends and family, even their lives?

  5) Subheading: "Do not just follow the crowd." This, of course, is a simple enough idea, but difficult to put into practice. How many Witnesses do you think just "go along with things" because they are afraid of losing friends and family members? The fear that results from Watchtower propaganda is so strong that it is nearly impossible to follow the Society's advice in this instance.

  Well, those are the basic points -- just one more. In a side article titled "Is The Work of Jehovah's Witnesses Propagandistic?", the Society answers the charge of using propaganda with this statement, which follows a list of accusations: "The simple fact is that Jehovah's Witnesses are none of the above." This, amazingly, is itself a subtle propagandistic technique: if the fact is so *simple,* it is self-evident, and only a stupid person would question it! Instead of justifying their publications by addressing the specific characteristics of propagandistic literature, they merely assert that they are doing God's work, carrying out his message, etc. -- typical and generic Witness rhetoric.

  A few paragraphs later, the article goes on to list all the fine morals and qualities of Witnesses, in a style that is certainly familiar to both of us. But how is this an argument against charges of propagandism? It may be true that most Witnesses are good people, and live peacefully, exemplifying "honesty, truthfulness, and cleanliness" in many aspects of their lives. But as this very magazine points out, "propagandistic messages can be used to accomplish positive social ends." In other words, Witnesses may very well be so "good" because of the Society's artful use of propaganda!

  Whew. Well, I'm sorry to have prattled on so long, but this magazine blew me away. I wonder who wrote it -- perhaps a renegade brother who somehow slipped it by the Governing Body? Or maybe this is the most brilliant use of propaganda of all, an attempt to persuade the readership to be hypercritical of all persuasive literature but the Society's? I don't know.
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  17

  Toilets are Unbiblical

  by JanH in

  1. social
  2. humour

  it's about time to put an end to the unbiblical and perverted practice of making water closets and other forms of toilets.

  this ungodly practice is clearly prohibited in god's word the bible:.

  deuteronomy 23: 12-14 "designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself.

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  dedalus

  I just received my latest Awake!, in which I was pleased to find the Young People Ask article, "Flushing -- How Can I Fight the Urge?" The article wisely points out that, "while flushing is considered 'harmless fun' by many youths, true Christians want to ask themselves: 'What are my motives? Is it wise to eliminate unwanted excrement with metal pipes and porcelain handles? What would Jesus do?'"

  Thankfully, JanH, the Organization has seen fit to address this serious matter in due course. How happy we are to benefit from such spiritual food at the plopper time!

  Dedalus
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  3

  Why do you belive jw's are true religion?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  last sundays watchtower 1/6/01 pg 13 p4 ,under the subheading of " who today have gods backing?

  " said "granted, true religion does make people better.

  but does the fact that a religion produces better people in itself prove that it has god's backing?

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  dedalus

  As a reasonable fellow of above-average intelligence, I still find myself baffled by the quote above. So, I'm lugging out my old translation program, FundyFish (tm), which puts subtle fundamentalist rhetoric into plain, easy-to-understand English.

  Input>> "Granted, true religion does make people better. But does the fact that a religion produces better people in itself prove that it has God's backing? Is that the sole criterion for determining ir a religion is true?"

  FundyFish>> "Just because your grandmother is a sweet old Catholic who volunteers in soup kitchens every Sunday and gives half her pension to orphans, doesn't mean she isn't pimping the great whore of false religion!"

  Input>> "The pivotal question in this matter is: which religion urges its followers to do gods will and gives solid evidence of divine backing...?"

  FundyFish>> "Even though Jehovah's Witnesses are generally assholes doesn't mean they don't have God's exclusive blessing! We have solid evidence of divine backing! How can we prove that it's solid evidence? Because it has divine backing! How can we prove it has divine backing? Because it's solid evidence! Convert or die, suckers!!!"

  This service is brought to you by the fine people at FundyFish (tm). Have a nice day.

  Dedalus