Posts by under

17

Could a JW be disfellowshipped for lack of "Faith"?

by JH in

jw
friends

lets say that a jw tells an elder that he prays and nothing happens.

then he tells the elder, that after praying so often and asking for reasonable things, i don't believe anymore that god answers prayers, because i was honest in my prayer and god didn't grant me what i wanted.

i was just wondering if an elder could see this as "lack of faith", which then could be a good reason to disfellowship someone.. .

under_believer

*** w86 4/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?

That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah's sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a "faithful and discreet slave" upon earth today 'entrusted with all of Jesus' earthly interests,' which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ's foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ's Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present "great crowd" of Jesus' "other sheep."—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.

So--Since one of the "entire range of true teachings of the Bible" as Witnesses see them is that God answers prayers, you could be declared a non-approved associate for not professing this believe. Being a non-approved associate could include disfellowshipping.

23

Religions that don't go to war

by ThomasCovenant in

hello in conversation today with brother-in- law who is still in the borg.he said while he may have questions about the whole god issue he doesn't know of any other religion that refuses to kill their fellow believer if politicians say you must.

that is a strong plus point for him on the virtues of the wt.

is he correct?

under_believer

Even if you want to look at refusal to go to war as a sign of the true religion (in my opinion it's easier to go that route than to talk them out of the whole idea) there are many other religions that require conscientious objection. Witnesses are NOT the only ones. Here is a partial list:

Historic Peace Churches (Church of the Brethren, Mennonites, Society of Friends [Quakers])
Jehovah's Witnesses, of course
Many Dharmic religions and sects. This group includes Hindus, Buddhists, Jainists, and Sikhs. There are many sects that fit into those religions that are pacifist
Many other minor sects all over the world

When I pointed these facts out to my mother, she said "Well, that may be true, but only Witnesses refuse to even take part in alternative service!" Chuckling, I told her to go look at the May 1, 1996 Watchtower article "Paying Back Caesar's Things to Caesar" which laid out the new light on alternative service--i.e. that it was okay now. I told her that any Witnesses who went to jail for refusing alternative service had suffered needlessly for a false religious teaching.

And of course I was right--she couldn't argue that one. Yay for being prepared and researching in advance. The Witnesses had some things right. Regular study of the subjects that interest you is one of them.

8

Progress with my wife

by under_believer in

jw
friends

well, progress continues.

i no longer directly attack my wife's beliefs... i leave her with questions to ponder and give her research assignments.

if there's one thing the witnesses taught me, it's how to talk to people in a nonthreatening way about their beliefs.

under_believer

Arthur, two things:

1) She's not that great of a Witness--has always had a very flexible sense of morality and right and wrong. Very judgmental in certain areas (especially homosexuality), but soft in others. Her family has three out of six kids disfellowshipped and another inactive.

2) Turning me in would cause hardships for herself and the kids. Right now, even though I'm inactive (as in no service) I still go to all the meetings that she wants to, to help support her with the kids there (they're all under the age of 8). If I get disfellowshipped, she knows I won't go anymore. The freedom this gives me to discuss things with her is so far worth the pain of attending those ridiculous meetings. "Worship", heh.

So I can get away with a few things. I wouldn't say anything like that to my mom or dad or any of my believing cousins, grandparents, or aunts/uncles. But with my wife, I can bring up thought-provoking questions.

I have not always kept my cool, I've made mistakes. Once I accused her of being an apostate (technically, I was correct). I am trying really hard to avoid any more incidents like that one.

25

What would you say is the main reason why people didn't listen to us?

by JH in

jw
friends

when i started going out door to door, i was sure i'd bring a couple of people with me to the org.

i knew my parents believed in god and the bible, so i was sure i'd be able to convince them with a few simple verses that we had the truth.

but no, they didn't seem convinced enough to want to study.

under_believer

Maybe because nobody wants to join up with a bunch of well-known weirdos? I'd say that would be the #1 reason.

8

Progress with my wife

by under_believer in

jw
friends

well, progress continues.

i no longer directly attack my wife's beliefs... i leave her with questions to ponder and give her research assignments.

if there's one thing the witnesses taught me, it's how to talk to people in a nonthreatening way about their beliefs.

under_believer

Well, progress continues. I no longer directly attack my wife's beliefs... I leave her with questions to ponder and give her research assignments. If there's one thing the Witnesses taught me, it's how to talk to people in a nonthreatening way about their beliefs.

Yesterday, I asked her what she thought about the KN37 comments at the Service Meeting the other night. She expressed irritation that someone else commented that there was a "good chance" that this tract could start the great tribulation because of it's unfavorable message. I'm not sure if she was irritated with the commenter, for thinking that the Society would try to or even be able to "kick off" the great tribulation, or if she was irritated because she believes the Society is trying to do so.

She also remembered (on her own) that someone had raised their hand and said that they believe that because "this isn't a favorable message" that it would stimulate persecution. I said "Oh, seriously, don't worry about it. It's nothing they haven't been saying for 100 years, it's nothing new. And hardly anyone will read it anyways, they'll just toss it in the trash." She acknowledged that this was true.

This led us to a discussion of the tract's contents. I said "don't give it to your Catholic return visits, it talks against the Catholics for child abuse." She said "well, the Catholics have a huge problem with that, don't they?" I said, "Well, there does seem to be an endemic problem among the clergy, I theorize that it comes back to the fact that they're celibate." She opined that Witnesses don't have anywhere near as much of a problem. I chuckled a little and said, "They don't? What about Jesus Cano? What about [name of local elder who everyone thinks is a pedo]?" She said those were just a couple of examples, not everyone was like that (well duh.)

I then explained about the Society's "two witnesses" rule, which she already knew about of course, and asked her to think about what effect it would have on child molester cases. I threw in for good measure the rules on reporting and non-reporting states, which I actually had heard about from my dad, an elder, before.

Definitely gave her something to think about. She loves children and they are the most important thing in her life.

21

Has anyone seen the movie "The Village"?

by megsmomma in

jw
friends

it reminds me so much of the jw's.

under_believer

The ambiguous nature of The Village is what really makes that film good for me. Were the village elders justified in living in a commune, and lying to their kids? By withdrawing from the world, were they improving things for themselves and their children? Especially, were they justified in scaring the living hell out of everyone, with things they knew were not true? What about the high price they paid? Their kids died of treatable diseases, because they wanted to be "no part of the world." Where those sacrifices "worth it?" And was the end a happy, or a sad ending?

Most significantly, their kids are going to find out the lie one day, and be responsible for either upholding it for THEIR children, or giving up on it. How will their children judge them, on that inevitable day?

And yes, the parallels to any exclusive, insular sect (like the Witnesses) are abundant.

22

A bethelites RULES to room with him

by What-A-Coincidence in

jw
friends

1) cologne, aerosol spray, solvent base products.

i am hypersensitive to solvents.

solvents used in aerosol sprays, cologne, perfumes affect my health.

under_believer

Well, #1 is a legitimate complaint, though it shouldn't be left up to this person to communicate it. He should be handled as a person with special needs and assigned by their rooming department accordingly. I see that more as a failure of infrastructure than a personality problem with this guy.

#2 and #5 are common sense roommate rules--have you ever had roommates? It only makes sense that people do their share of keeping the place clean and orderly, and not too noisy. Though again, it shouldn't be up to this guy to state those rules--in an institutionalized environment like Bethel, they should just be THE RULES for everyone.

#3, #4, and #6 are actively offensive, though, especially #4. He gets the kitchen, and not the other guy? Whatever. Territorial pissing display, is what that is. Those really DO display an offensive personality defect.

159

Logically consistent theories of ID exist.

by hooberus in

the following is one theory that comes from the id book the biotic messagehttp://www1.minn.net/~science/contents.htm by walter remine.

"an intelligent designer is necessary for the origin of life from non-life.

" the biotic message page.

under_believer

Logically consistent theories of ID exist

Maybe so (in fact, I can probably come up with some), but they haven't been detailed or even summarized in this thread. Quoting some random assertion from a book doesn't qualify.

Please summarize this logically consistent theory, and we can talk. Though I have to point out that logical consistency doesn't necessarily imply merit.

135

Chemical weapons being used ... how about it America?

by Simon in

of course, as it's the murdering, war-crime-committing, un-mandate-ignoring, nuclear-non-proliferation-flouting israeli friends of america, they probably won't see it as an issue at all.. funny that ... they were dead keen on going to war over just the hint of this very thing but probably won't even condemn it.. it's about time that sanctions were imposed on israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm.

.

under_believer

I have only this to say: Britain is as culpable in this matter as America.

That is all.

20

The Time Bomb In Every Witness Congregation

by metatron in

jw
friends

the recent court defeat of the watchtower emphasizes a point i have repeatedly dwelt on:.

the confidential judicial files in each congregation of jehovah's witnesses are a potential "bomb"!.

they often make for interesting reading, if you have access to them.

under_believer

True story: Yesterday at the meeting, I took my kid back into the Kingdom Hall office for a little break (he's a toddler and really isn't capable of sitting for long periods of time.) While we were back there, he waddled over to the printer and pushed the power button on it. It turned on.

A few minute later, when I was getting ready to exit, I noticed the printer was on and decided to turn it off--only there was just the one button. So I was like, well, maybe you hold it down, to turn it off? No. Apparently what happens if you hold down the power button is that it prints a copy of whatever the last document to be printed was. It wasn't anything damaging--it was a talk outline on the "Pioneers Assist Others" program--but it COULD have been.

I have a feeling I'll be pushing that power button more often when I'm alone with my kid in the Kingdom Hall office.

under_believer

Posts by under_believer