Posts by Jringe01

19

The FBI and the JW's

by kwr in

does anyone know anything about investigations of the jw's by the fbi or by other federal agencies?

i'm especially interested in any investigations by j. edgar hoover.

have there been any foia requests done of the fbi about investigations of the jw's or their leader(s)?

It wouldn't suprise me if there were. Hoover investigated and had files on so many people during his tenure. In fact that was the key to his power and length of time in office. No president dared to get rid of him and the only one apparently prepared to do so (Nixon) was thwarted by Hoover's death. Makes one wonder if that was deliberate on Hoover's part.

12

The Joy of Sect

by Abandoned in

ok, now i know a bunch of you have to have seen this episode of the simpsons.

it's where homer gets a tract from some cultists at the airport and decides to attend their retreat.. .

the simpsons are seated around the dinner table talking.. marge: "what?".

Jringe01

Gotta love the Simpsons man. They are so subversive. LOL

44

Counting Time

by Xena in

jw
friends

i don't know about anyone else but this could be the source of major contention between dubs in my halls.

you had those who started their time as soon as you pulled out of the hall parking lot (me), those who counted from the first knock at the door or laundry mat visited, and the die hards who didn't start until they actually spoke to someone(my sister).

my sister and i would go round and round about this, i finally just pretended to start my time when she did just to shut her up.

Jringe01

Depends. Since we had a territory almost the size of Rhode Island if we were goin out to the boonies I would wait but if it was in town then I started as soon as we left the hall

10

Boorish Behavior of Dubs at Convention Cities?

by XJW4EVR in

jw
friends

maybe this has been talked about already, but the thought occured to me as to whether or not the boorish behavior commented on annually during the district convention part during the service meeting.

did these sorts of things happen?

if you were on the rooming committee, i would love to know if this can be verified or busted..

Jringe01

I remember 1991 when I went to the convention with friends and we were out at the restaurant afterwards. We were all laughing and having a good time and then these girls came over and squeezed into our booth. Everyone could tell I was not impressed so that ended quick. The one of the guys I was with in the course of his having fun got up, started dancing and singing "Come on baby light my fire" to that same group of girls who were obviously enjoying his little show. This restaurant was packed and many people overheard it.

30

New Convention Apostate Protest technique.

by vomit in

jw
friends

how about making a stall outside the convention center called "apostate muffins" or "once a brother muffins".

make some crazy good muffins.

but each one you sell you also have to eat one.

Jringe01

Because we all know that everyone donates money when they pass a salvation army ringer.

Really? Don't tell that to people here in MTL. Most here don't from what I've seen. In fact I saw one poor fellow on Ste Catherines getting yelled at by some guy who was ranting about what goes on in their shelters.

If you use muffins best to have them fresh and piping hot so the smell will drive them to come over. Go to a convention where no one knows you, set up a stall and sell them for a buck apiece. Don't let on that you are "apostate" so to speak. If you are careful you could engage some of them in conversation as OUTLAW suggests and get your digs in.

See..the best of both worlds.

35

The Lord's prayer, why JW's never say it

by moomanchu in

we all know it's not an issue if people say the lord's prayer or not, but except for the fact that jw's make it an issue.

to them it's kinda like the boogie man and to say it makes you part of christendom, ripe for destruction.. this thread is in response to another thread.i finally took some time to look into information to make a reply.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/130602/2.ashx.

a jw commented on that thread.

Jringe01

Model: A preliminary work or construction that serves as a plan from which a final product is to be made. One serving as an example to be imitated or compared. Here are some Synonyms: framework, simulation, example, pattern, mold and mock up. Some related words are " possibility, representation, ideal, microcosm, epitome, prototype, archetype, pilot, image and template.

Now to address some of of the thoughts offered about my previous post. I just want to make sure everyone understands the points I am trying to make because apparently there was some misunderstanding.

If you say the "model prayer" over and over again then what does it mean? Where is the heartfelt expression?
Bit of a generalisation there. Repetion equals insincere?? I'll remember that the next time my wife and kids tell me they love me. Hey they've told me ONCE so they must just be patronising me now

There are many many different ways of saying thank you, showing love and appreciation and not all of them are verbal. They are limited only by your imagination. Remember that in a face to face conversation tonality and body language are what convey your message. Words are weak communicators because they are left up to interpretation. This is why people often get into e-mail wars at the office because in that medium you can't convey tone and body language so it's all too easy to misinterpret. Don't ask how I know that.

Now lets say that everytime your wife/husband/partner said "I love you" they said it in exactly the same tone (with little to no vocal variety) and with exactly the same body language how long would it take you to doubt their words? You see when we look at someone telling us "I love you" or saying "Hello" it's the difference in settings, the different tone, the variety in pitch, their body language that really tells us what they are saying.

Example: You bump into an old friend on the street. The last time you saw this friend you had a bit of a tiff. Senario A: Your friend looks at you, smiles, walks over to you, clasps you warmly on the arm and says "Hello. How are you?" Senario B: Your friend looks at you, remains aloof, makes no effort to bridge the distance between you, does not smile and says in a monotone says "Hello. How are you?. In which senario is your friend truely glad to see you? In both senario's the words were exactly the same but as you can tell from the tone and body language they don't mean the same thing.

In my youth (before my stint in the JW) I was present in many public gatherings and saw many more on TV where the Lord's prayer was recited. As a youth I had quite the interest in god however after so many times of hearing that same prayer being recited in that same monotone, the same words over and over again I got to the point of yawning and rolling my eyes. It was like a WT study..it was BORING! Boring as hell! There is nothing to think about for you don't have to think to recite those same words over and over again.

Now at the risk of being shot I do have to give a little bit of credit to JW's. I'm sure I'm not alone in this, especially when i was first comming into the "faith". There were from time to time prayers offered that provoked some sort of reaction in me. Be it an emotional or logical response there was something in those words, in the tone of the brother's voice that made me think, made me react in some way.

In the ancient religious mindset a deity was precisely not a human friend or relative. The gods were feared before they were loved.

David proved to be an exception then for his words in the Psalms proved that he loved his God before he feared him. His prayers are his thoughts and feelings poured out in the way he knew best, song. His words in prayer can provoke a reaction in us, they make us think. David never repeated the exact same words over and over again (come to think of it apparently Jesus didn't either and he originated the model). Each prayer was a glimpse into his thoughts and emotions. THAT"S how prayer should be.

Any idiot can chant the Lord's Prayer but not everyone can truely pray. Prayer is an expression of faith, a statement that says something about who you are and how you feel about your god.
When the "model prayer" is presented to you, and you decide that your "everybody look at me prayer" is better, that speaks volumes about you.

This statement presumes an arrogance that is not present. Beware your presumptions. I never once said that prayers other than the Lord's model are better and no where did I suggest that it should never be used. If you felt that I was suggesting this then why didn't you ask instead of blatently assuming? My issue is with only using the model, with only saying those same words over and over again. Also just because people have abused the privledge doesn't mean that all do. Not everyone who offers a public prayer is doing so in the hopes he can make himself stand out or seem more righteous. Sorry.

A prayer is an address to God. Like addressing a fellow human being it's not meant to be a mindless droning of words. We may well criticize the WTS for providing talk outlines but do you notice that the speakers never have a precise script they have to read verbatim?
There is a difference between a public talk and a group prayer. In a public talk, the orator can gas away until the cows come home.

Technically no, a prayer and a public talk are the same in that both have outlines. However that was NOT the point being made. The point is "the speakers never have a precise script they have to read verbatim" When all you do is recite the Lord's model that's what you are doing, reciting a script verbatim (verbatim meaning word for word). The statement was made specifically to emphasize the fact that when you're talking to somebody you almost never read from a prepared script (unless you are interviewing them).

If all you can and/or want to do is recite that model prayer over and over again then what kind of relationship do you really have with the god you claim to believe in/worship.
This "model prayer" by virtue of the first word "our" indicates a "group prayer". What you do individually is another matter. If pontificating is your thing, then do it in private and don't hold everyone else hostage while you go on and on about your version of what God should do.

Again sir/madam you assume an arrogance where there is none and you appear to display a rather arrogant attitude of your own, based on the tone of your words. I could be wrong though (see above) (LOl) It has to be noted that this seemingly snide remark does not answer the question posed.

If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship? It would be a gialnt flashing EMPTY sign as in nothing there, no foundation, no substance.
Once again, a greeting is not a group prayer. But for the sake of arguement, stop using the words "Hello" and "I love you". They are after all "model" expressions. To repeat them over and over again is meaningless.

I'm sorry but the assertion that "hello" and "I love you" are model expressions is inaccurate. See definition of model above. As well not everyone says only these expressions. As with saying "Thank you" there are many differnt ways to convey these thoughts and not all of them are verbal. Remember that when using these expressions it's your tonality and body language that convey the true intent of your words. Yes a greeting is not a group prayer but that's not the point being made and the poster's comment, again does not answer the question. The question says "If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship?" I used the word cnversation, not greeting. Having a conversation with God or a friend (it doesn't matter who) if all you had to say each time was the same thing as the last time with no variation then what does that say about your relationship? What kind of relationship can any one person or group of people hope to have with a God (or another person/group of people) if they never have anything new to say? How can such a relationship grow and prosper?

Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...

on and on and on and on and on and on and on.............

Get the drift?

One last point to cover:

In Market Research surveys there is an exact script to follow and if the company is doing it's job correctly then that script can never be deviated from for any reason and the way you conduct yourself is (should be) strictly regulated. However in my company we have now taken on a customer service tracker which requires interviewers to be more flexable, more human, warm, genuine etc and many cannot shake the old Market Research mentality thus when they talk to these customers they sound mechanical, cold and robotic. Hearing the Lord's Prayer recited over and over again with no change is cold, without feeling and mechanical.
A telemarketing spiel is not the same as a group prayer. What was presented was a"model prayer" not a model on how to sell vaccuum cleaners

Again this poor poster just doesn't get it. This was being offered as an example to illustrate how saying the same thing over and over again sounds cold, robotic and mechanical: "In Market Research surveys there is an exact script to follow and if the company is doing it's job correctly then that script can never be deviated from for any reason and the way you conduct yourself is (should be) strictly regulated. However in my company we have now taken on a customer service tracker which requires interviewers to be more flexable, more human, warm, genuine etc and many cannot shake the old Market Research mentalitythus when they talk to these customers they sound mechanical, cold and robotic. Hearing the Lord's Prayer recited over and over again with no change is cold, without feeling and mechanical."

Point of order: Market Research is NOT Telemarketing no matter what the poster thinks. It's true that telemarketers will use surveys to beguilee people into buying things but a true Market Research survey NEVER ATTEMPTS TO SELL YOU ANYTHING AT ANY TIME, EVER!!!!!.Having been in this business for 5 years I know what i'm talking about.

Anyway that's my two cents worth.

142

This board is not for me.

by Wafe in

jw
friends

when i came to this board, i thought that it was for encouragement amoung people who had been treated badly by the wtbts, i did not understand that people were going to come here and bash god, his son and the bible.

i could understand some embitterment over religion but some of you people are down right insulting.

not to mention the fact that i have tried to contact others on the board and have had my messages ignored.. .

Jringe01

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations: A celebration of how simplicity can arise from complexity and stability from complexity.

I have been told that in physics there is a term known as the "Self organizing principle". This refers to the tendency for replicating systems to arise on the boundaries of high and low energy. In a domain of high energy physical bonds cannot form. In domains of low energy once a bond forms it cannot be broken. This has a mirror in the affairs of intelligent beings.

Religions (like the JW) would be a domain of low energy (structure cannot be broken) whereas athiests, agnostics, "liberals" etc would be a domain of high energy (structure cannot form). Somewhere between the two I believe a new system is gradually coming into being.

Perfection leads to stagnation. Only in imperfection is there room for improvement and change. That is after all what life is about. The constant shuffling of attributes and abilities to insure that life will continue. The study of the very large leads us back to to the study of the very small just as analyzing the the complex uncovers the very simple principles from which the complexity emerged. Life must continue and in order to do so we need to find that balance, a place where we no longer react by learning from our mistakes but we take action by learning from our triumphs.

Wafe: celebrate the diversity, learn from it.

17

Satan's Star (scan)

by AlphaOmega in

here is a scan from the 1978 edition of "my book of bible stories" !.

http://i17.tinypic.com/4i1q8sz.jpg.

satan makes a star shine ?

Jringe01

That's a valid point Scully. However if we for the sake of arguement accept the account in the bible as factual them we have to remember that Jesus and Herod were not in the same city. Herod was in Jerusalem and Jesus in Bethlehem.

The account as laid out in Matthew chapter 2 says that the magi came to Jerusalem and were asking about "...the one born King of the Jews..". It then says

"At hearing this King Herod was agitated and all Jerusalem along with him (thus they arrived, started asking questions and the resulting uproar is what brought them to Herod's attention, remember the Jews were waiting for this event). Herod then gathered his advisors and they told him the child should be in Bethlehem. That's when verse 7 says that Herod summoned the Magi (secretly) and asked them to find the child and tell him where he was.

From the sounds of it Herod was trying to kill the child on the qt and when he found out that the Magi had not followed his orders he had every child under the age of two killed.

This is politics plain and simple. It may well be that Satan wanted Jesus dead and did waht he could to make it happen (guiding the magi to Herod). However we can acertain that Herod did want him dead regardless of satan's wishes and if Jesus was really to be the long awaited, much anticipated "King" then Herod would be out of a job. This is a perfectly plausible account and stuff like this happensd all the time in battels over thrones. Innocents always suffer horrible cruelities in such games.

35

The Lord's prayer, why JW's never say it

by moomanchu in

we all know it's not an issue if people say the lord's prayer or not, but except for the fact that jw's make it an issue.

to them it's kinda like the boogie man and to say it makes you part of christendom, ripe for destruction.. this thread is in response to another thread.i finally took some time to look into information to make a reply.. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/130602/2.ashx.

a jw commented on that thread.

Jringe01

If you say the "model prayer" over and over again then what does it mean? Where is the heartfelt expression?

When you thank a friend, collegue, family member who does somethign for you on a regular basis do you say the exact same thing each time? Of course not.

A prayer is an address to God. Like addressing a fellow human being it's not meant to be a mindless droning of words. We may well criticize the WTS for providing talk outlines but do you notice that the speakers never have a precise script they have to read verbatim?

In Market Research surveys there is an exact script to follow and if the company is doing it's job correctly then that script can never be deviated from for any reason and the way you conduct yourself is (should be) strictly regulated. However in my company we have now taken on a customer service tracker which requires interviewers to be more flexable, more human, warm, genuine etc and many cannot shake the old Market Research mentality thus when they talk to these customers they sound mechanical, cold and robotic. Hearing the Lord's Prayer recited over and over again with no change is cold, without feeling and mechanical.

Any idiot can chant the Lord's Prayer but not everyone can truely pray. Prayer is an expression of faith, a statement that says something about who you are and how you feel about your god. If all you can and/or want to do is recite that model prayer over and over again then what kind of relationship do you really have with the god you claim to believe in/worship. If everytime you saw your best friend, you had the exact same conversation each time what would that say about your relationship? It would be a gialnt flashing EMPTY sign as in nothing there, no foundation, no substance.

Don't you think that Jesus would have known that many in his time recited the same words when chanting/praying just as they do now? He was Jewish, he's know all about mantra's.

17

Satan's Star (scan)

by AlphaOmega in

here is a scan from the 1978 edition of "my book of bible stories" !.

http://i17.tinypic.com/4i1q8sz.jpg.

satan makes a star shine ?

Jringe01

Hello??????

How do you explain then why the star lead the Magi to Herod, then to Jesus???????

Herod wanted Jesus dead according to the account...why would God lead the Magi to Herod then??????????? Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it??????? Yeah right, God sends his son to earth then sends a star to guide the Magi to Herod who wants him dead??????

The account says the star lead the Magi to Herod who puts on this great show and convinces the Magi that he wants to find the child so that he may worship the child but of course that's false. Herod asks them to tell him where the child is when they find him. The Magi obviously don't see Herod for what he is, after all this event, the birth of the "Savior" was an event all Jews were waiting for so they would have no reason to doubt Herod's intentions. That's why the account says God warned them in a dream not to go to Herod but to leave by another route. The Magi were pawns, nothing more.

If you accept the fact that Satan is a fallen angel then you also have to accept that these angels have far more power than we do and making it seem like there is a star in the night sky...that's something we could do with our level of technology. It's not hard.